• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

CAC Dealers...

Started by gmarguli,

374 posts in this topic

IGWT

IGWT

Posted
Posted

I'm trying to choose between (a) the law of unitended consequences, or (b) Muphy's Law. I think those are the only two explanations, unless CAC planned the hype.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
BTW, without even looking, I'm guessing that Dealer No. 1 is Legend Numismatics.
If you'e really "guessing", (and aren't sure) you're much dumber than I'd thought :D

 

 

;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS - Seriously, you seem quite bright to me, despite your "guessing" remark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
Posted

Gold is a lock upgrade and CAC will treat it as such. I own 3 such coins and in each case paid a huge premium to acquire them ... over the current grade on the holder. Duh!

 

When a dealer makes a business plan to handle predominantly what they feel are top end for the grade coins, it's not unusual that most of their coins receive glowing descriptions. While I might agree that Laura does make mistakes and sometimes buys coins not to my taste, overall I feel that their case of wares is most times one of the strongest for the grade at any show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
jesbroken

jesbroken

Posted
Posted

I say HOORAY! for Mark. What other dealer is including info about their coins being rejected by CAC? Think about it, if CAC was worth anything to the average collector it would be evident by a nonremovable notation that the coin did not meet their grade and what they feel the coin should grade(if gradeable at all). In this day and time, its refreshing to see a dealer admit to CAC's rejection of their coin's grade by the top TPG's. I do not in any way support CAC as it is only the upper, upper, upper tier(is that three tiers-almost like crying) that benefit from its sticker. I've never even seen a gold stickered coin in any inventory. JMHO

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
Posted

I've never even seen a gold stickered coin in any inventory.

 

That's because the vast majority of undergraded coins are owned by COLLECTORS, not dealers. In fact, COLLECTORS are the ones that own the vast majority of nice for the grade coins, too. So any run up in price benefits whom the most? COLLECTORS.

 

I agree that it sucks to have to pay more to acquire nice coins - but for the most part I was having to pay more ANYWAY. And at least now I know the coin hasn't been doctored in order to get it into the holder it was in. And the flip side of having to pay more is that the coins that I've already paid more in order to acquire are now more liquid at that higher value.

 

If you don't like it or don't need it, don't use it. But don't denigrate it just for spite. It serves a very useful purpose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
jesbroken

jesbroken

Posted
Posted

TDN I really hate to reply to your post, but as I've been accused of being "spiteful toward" and "denigrating" CAC, I feel I must. I never post out of spite. I post because I have an opinion, and the fact that it differs from yours, sobeit! I believe that you have the right to yours as do I to mine. Until this forum becomes like another, I will feel free to state my opinion. I will again make it plain-I do not think that CAC is a benefit to collectors unless it stickers its rejections as it does its acceptance. When this occurs, I will champion CAC and my opinion will change.

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MAULEMALL

MAULEMALL

Posted
Posted

Wow... This is not in response to any post in particular... Mainly because I don't feel the need to use the CAC... But I can see that some could actually benefit from it.

 

 

Are there any examples that could be posted?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
  • Author
Posted
And at least now I know the coin hasn't been doctored in order to get it into the holder it was in.

 

No, you don't know. All you have is an extra set of eyes looking at the coin and saying it is OK. This extra set of eyes is the same set that likely OKed thousands of doctored coins into slabs before.

 

BTW, there is a picture of a horribly dipped Bust half/dollar with a CAC sticker floating around. It was a revolting coin. Clearly doctored. Guess it wasn't doctored enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
Posted
And at least now I know the coin hasn't been doctored in order to get it into the holder it was in.

 

No, you don't know. All you have is an extra set of eyes looking at the coin and saying it is OK.

 

 

An extra set of eyes is good by me. I can grade well enough, but have very little experience with doctored coins. Just haven't seen enough of them to feel comfortable recognizing what's out there. And I presume that some will be missed - but if one is and it's recognized, it will be bought back. No magic felt pad. ;)

 

This extra set of eyes is the same set that likely OKed thousands of doctored coins into slabs before.

 

Objection, presumes facts not in evidence. If you'd care to stack up your eyes against JA's, be my guest.

 

BTW, there is a picture of a horribly dipped Bust half/dollar with a CAC sticker floating around. It was a revolting coin. Clearly doctored. Guess it wasn't doctored enough.

 

Funny how you call it doctored off a picture but someone who saw it in person said it was just fine. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
  • Author
Posted
BTW, there is a picture of a horribly dipped Bust half/dollar with a CAC sticker floating around. It was a revolting coin. Clearly doctored. Guess it wasn't doctored enough.

 

Funny how you call it doctored off a picture but someone who saw it in person said it was just fine. ;)

 

It was blotchy white. vomit.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites
James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted
Gold is a lock upgrade and CAC will treat it as such.

TDN, don't take my question as some kind of attack, but are you saying that there is some sort of "guarantee" that a gold-stickered coin will upgrade upon resubmission? (And no, I have not yet seen a gold-stickered coin in person.)

 

In fact, COLLECTORS are the ones that own the vast majority of nice for the grade coins, too. So any run up in price benefits whom the most? COLLECTORS.

I'm very surprised to see this claim being made. As a collector myself, I can postively state that any "run up in price" for coins is a big time negative for me - definitely not a benefit.

 

Coming from the (hopefully) middle ground, I agree that an "extra set of eyes" can definitely be a benefit for a collector, and I suppose that the CAC sticker represents that. But since I do not know John Albanese, nor have I read any books or articles he may have written on grading coins, I have no confidence whatseover that his particular "extra set of eyes" does me any good. For that matter, I'd never even heard of him until the advent of CAC! On the other hand, there are a number of collectors I know whose additional opinion on a coin is always welcome. (Rick Snow, who I think I understand to be consulting with CAC, is one.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
IGWT

IGWT

Posted
Posted
BTW, without even looking, I'm guessing that Dealer No. 1 is Legend Numismatics.
If you'e really "guessing", (and aren't sure) you're much dumber than I'd thought :D

 

PS - Seriously, you seem quite bright to me, despite your "guessing" remark.

 

Those coin descriptions are as unique as a fingerprint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Gold is a lock upgrade and CAC will treat it as such.

TDN, don't take my question as some kind of attack, but are you saying that there is some sort of "guarantee" that a gold-stickered coin will upgrade upon resubmission? (And no, I have not yet seen a gold-stickered coin in person.)

 

In fact, COLLECTORS are the ones that own the vast majority of nice for the grade coins, too. So any run up in price benefits whom the most? COLLECTORS.

I'm very surprised to see this claim being made. As a collector myself, I can postively state that any "run up in price" for coins is a big time negative for me - definitely not a benefit.

 

Coming from the (hopefully) middle ground, I agree that an "extra set of eyes" can definitely be a benefit for a collector, and I suppose that the CAC sticker represents that. But since I do not know John Albanese, nor have I read any books or articles he may have written on grading coins, I have no confidence whatseover that his particular "extra set of eyes" does me any good. For that matter, I'd never even heard of him until the advent of CAC! On the other hand, there are a number of collectors I know whose additional opinion on a coin is always welcome. (Rick Snow, who I think I understand to be consulting with CAC, is one.)

James, I'm not TDN, but I did stay at a TDN select hotel last night and can answer your question - There is obviously no guarantee about what a grading company will think about or do with a coin that receives a gold sticker. However, such coins will be eligible for CAC bids at the next grade up, sight-unseen.

 

And, while you, personally, might look upon price increases (where applicable) as a negative, plenty of collectors who sell will look at it as a plus. It is not just about YOU :o

;)

 

And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
  • Author
Posted
And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

 

So if I submitted some "worked" coins to CAC, he'd catch them all. hm

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

 

So if I submitted some "worked" coins to CAC, he'd catch them all. hm

Greg, I don't recall saying he is perfect. " hm "
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
Posted
I'm very surprised to see this claim being made. As a collector myself, I can postively state that any "run up in price" for coins is a big time negative for me - definitely not a benefit.

 

When housing prices move upwards, do you also claim there is no benefit for home owners? hm

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
  • Author
Posted
And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

 

So if I submitted some "worked" coins to CAC, he'd catch them all. hm

Greg, I don't recall saying he is perfect. " hm "

 

But he'd catch most? If I submitted 10 worked coins, he'd catch 9 perhaps?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
EZ_E

EZ_E

Posted
Posted

But he'd catch most? If I submitted 10 worked coins, he'd catch 9 perhaps?

 

Objection. Leading the witness, your honor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Revenant

Revenant

Posted
Posted
And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

 

So if I submitted some "worked" coins to CAC, he'd catch them all. hm

Greg, I don't recall saying he is perfect. " hm "

 

But he'd catch most? If I submitted 10 worked coins, he'd catch 9 perhaps?

 

Most generaly means more than half. 9 out of 10 is "the vast majority."

Link to comment
Share on other sites
123cents

123cents

Posted
Posted

I don't think I have ever commented on the CAC though I have watched what has been going on since it inception.

 

I now think it is one of the worse things to come along in recent times. I see many coins with CAC green stickers that are horrible looking coins with premium prices.

 

I have submitted coins to NGC and PCGS that should have graded at least 5 points higher but are now undergraded because of this CAC craze.

 

What is the point of sending coins are buying coins that are graded by NGC and PCGS if you don't trust their grading skills and have to seek a CAC sticker later?

 

I think the CAC should have become a grading service if they were all that concerned about the collector.

 

Since the CAC can only sticker a coin not downgrade it, keep the grade the same, or upgrade a coin I believe their opinion is useless.( At least it is to me)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
Posted
And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

 

So if I submitted some "worked" coins to CAC, he'd catch them all. hm

Greg, I don't recall saying he is perfect. " hm "

 

But he'd catch most? If I submitted 10 worked coins, he'd catch 9 perhaps?

 

You got 10 "worked" coins past PCGS or NGC? Congrats! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
lehigh96

lehigh96

Posted
Posted
Wow... This is not in response to any post in particular... Mainly because I don't feel the need to use the CAC... But I can see that some could actually benefit from it.

 

 

Are there any examples that could be posted?

 

 

I posted an example in another current thread about how the CAC helped me. LINK

Link to comment
Share on other sites
prudden

prudden

Posted
Posted
Greg, Interesting post! At least for dealer #2, I believe you're confusing CAC's "good for the grade" with "pleasing, "appealing" and other adjectives. Can't a coin be appealing and low-end for the grade?...Mike

 

Maybe. ;)

 

For me eye appeal and the "pleasing qualities" of a coin are factored into the grade and (heavily) into my decision to buy. I guess if you looked mainly at the technical aspects (marks, strike, planchet quality, etc) of the coin, you could easily find coins that are low end or even overgraded based on those factors alone, but the eye appeal carried them to the next grade. A good example of what I mean would be rainbow toned Morgans that frequently appear to get a grade bump. You see a lot of these in MS64 slabs where the lady appears to have been beaten on the face.

 

Exactly. Got one the other day.Posted pics in the "Can you spare a grade" forum.

 

I find it odd about the dealer your original post that,on the one hand, the dealer states the coin was rejected by CAC and on the other hand, says it doesn't mean anything with "this" coin.

Why bother to submit to CAC if you only agree with them when you get a "gold" sticker?

 

BTW,I do give him/her credit for actually having the guts to say some of his coins were rejected by CAC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted
I'm very surprised to see this claim being made. As a collector myself, I can postively state that any "run up in price" for coins is a big time negative for me - definitely not a benefit.

 

When housing prices move upwards, do you also claim there is no benefit for home owners?

 

And, while you, personally, might look upon price increases (where applicable) as a negative, plenty of collectors who sell will look at it as a plus. It is not just about YOU

 

Whoa, now just hold on a minute! IF it just so happens at the time of a price run up that I'm wanting to sell, sure, that helps out me - one collector out of many. But generally speaking, isn't a "collector" someone who wants to BUY coins? as they work toward furthering their collection hm ?

 

I haven't taken a formal poll of any sort, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any active coin collector I know personally who thinks a "run up in prices" will benefit him :o ! On the contrary, ALL the talk I hear is about how coin prices are too high! Sure, Mark, as you said, it isn't all about me personally, but I'll be darned if I want to pay even more now for bust halves than I have been since they've about tripled in cost :frustrated: over the past couple of years.

 

Gentlemen, I'm sorry, but if CAC is touting a "run up in prices" as a "benefit" that they are providing for collectors, then there is no way in heck I can possibly believe they have collectors' interests at heart. On the contrary, as someone else stated, it would have to be one of the most blatant and prolific numismatic money grabs ever.

 

Please tell me that CAC does not seriously believe that a coin price run up is somehow good for collectors or the hobby, please.

 

Am I just plain wrong here? Do any of my fellow board members, besides Mark and Bruce, think that a price run up, in general, benefits us as collectors?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing