How can you tell if an NGC case has been opened? 0

[mlovest]

Help!

 

I just received a 1963 PF 68 W Cameo Franklin half in the mail, but the sides look like they have been glued together. The case doesn't look like it was manhandled, but there is a crack visible on the right side between the two halves of the holder. The coin looks pretty good, but I'm no expert on Franklin proofs--that's why I bought the sealed coin in the first place!

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks!

Mike

Edited October 12, 2003 by mlovest

[coinman1794]

Its hard to address the problem without seeing it. Do you have a picture? Also, Many NGC slabs have melted plastic, left over from the sealing process, comming out of the seems. Could this be what you see on your holder?

[MAULEMALL]

Mike I think since the grade contains a W that you have an older slab.I have a few older slabs like the one you have and they mostly all have that reglued look.If someone had gotten inside I think you could tell easily.What year is your Franklin?

[TomB]

It's extraordinarily unlikely that you have a broken into and resealed slab. Since you have not posted an image I am going to assume that the slab is similar to many that NGC put out in the time period since they have used the W designation and that the seems are not flush.

[Leothelion]

To say the least, there are out there who do break open slabs and proof sets, switch coins and glue the sides back together, then try to sell this bogus [!@#%^&^] to unsuspecting collectors.

 

Leo

[GDJMSP]

With the Proof sets - I would agree that this can be done. But to the best of my knowledge - it is not possible with any slab.

[DaveG]

Kingofthejungle:

 

(Let me preface this by saying that I've never tried to crack a slab, but I've heard from a lot of people who have done it.)

 

While I understand that there are some years of proof sets that are fairly easy to open and reclose, my understanding is that slabs (especially PCGS, NGC and ANACS) are designed to shatter when an attempt is made to open them.

 

(I also understand that in the first few years of their existence, some slabs could be opened and resealed, but that the grading services changed their slabs when this was brought to their attention.)

 

Are you saying that you have first-hand knowledge of a major grading service slab that was successfully opened and resealed (in the past few years)?

[MikeKing]

I haven't seen the slab, so I can't say this is the case, but some NGC holders look like they've been opened, I mean, there's a groove around the edge. That doesn't mean they've been opened.

 

The safest bet would be to send it in for reholdering. Then, you get a nice, fresh new holder.

 

 

[mlovest]

I have scans, Coinman, but I don't know how to post them here!

[mlovest]

Pat,

 

It's a 1963...why would there be melted plastic coming out of the seems? That's actually what it looks like. Either that or it looks like too much modelers glues was used and it seeped out.

 

Mike

[mlovest]

Thanks, Tom!

[nwcs]

Pat,

 

It's a 1963...why would there be melted plastic coming out of the seems? That's actually what it looks like. Either that or it looks like too much modelers glues was used and it seeped out.

 

Mike

It's from the sonic sealing process. The high energy sound melts the plastic to merge the two halves together. What you are almost certainly seeing is the little bits of plastic that flowed in an outward direction. Nothing to worry about.

[DaveG]

mlovest:

 

It looks like melted plastic coming out of the seams because it is melted plastic. I've seen several NGC slabs (mostly a few years ago) that also have too much melted plastic around the seams. I haven't seen any NGC slabs with "sloppy" edges for a few years, so I think they fixed this problem.

 

(No glue is used - it would probably have a nasty impact on the coins.)

 

As this history major understands it, the slabs are "sonically sealed", that is, they use sound waves to melt the edges of the slab together. Perhaps someone can explain the process better than I can.

[Leothelion]

Hi Dave

First hand, I've never seen a suspecting slab, although I have had a couple of collectors ask for advise on such and I've told them to send it back. I believe they were ANACS.

Proof sets, I've seen and they are sent back ASAP!

 

Leo

[Rampage-migration]

Interesting post.

[Brian Mclendon]

On 10/11/2003 at 8:59 PM, mlovest said:

Pat,

 

It's a 1963...why would there be melted plastic coming out of the seems? That's actually what it looks like. Either that or it looks like too much modelers glues was used and it seeped out.

 

Mike

I just got in like 20 suspect ngc cases I examine them close they were opened and resealed I don't care what everyone think it's glue not.plastic beware buyers seems to.ne older ngc cases 

[Revenant]

38 minutes ago, Brian Mclendon said:

I just got in like 20 suspect ngc cases I examine them close they were opened and resealed I don't care what everyone think it's glue not.plastic beware buyers seems to.ne older ngc cases 

Sooo…. you have revived an 18 year old thread to complain that you have not 1 but 20 slabs you claim have been tampered with and... no pictures? You're not going to try to back this up?

Why are there never pictures when people claim these things?!? The first post from this thread - nearly 18.5 years ago - asks for pictures of the supposedly bogus / tampered slab.

 

[Morpheus1967]

Just now, Revenant said:

Sooo…. you have revived an 18 year old thread to complain that you have not 1 but 20 slabs you claim have been tampered with and... no pictures? You're not going to try to back this up?

Why are there never pictures when people claim these things?!? The first post from this thread - nearly 18.5 years ago - asks for pictures of the supposedly bogus / tampered slab.

 

Not 1, but two threads.  Albeit, the other thread is only 14 years old.

[Hoghead515]

You can see glue in them when you look closely. I don't really know cause I've not broken any apart but I'd think you would see all kinds of damage on them if someone tampered with them. Because they seal them pretty good just by looking at the ones I've had slabbed. There's gobs around them in certain places that looks like someone glued them. 

[Revenant]

Just now, Hoghead515 said:

You can see glue in them when you look closely. I don't really know cause I've not broken any apart but I'd think you would see all kinds of damage on them if someone tampered with them. Because they seal them pretty good just by looking at the ones I've had slabbed. There's gobs around them in certain places that looks like someone glued them. 

I've definitely seen some stuff on the edges of these slabs.

I would be shocked if NGC ever used glue because glue can off-gas, including into the holder, which could damage, discolor, or corrode a coin.

NGC refers to "Sonically Sealing," which others have taken as a reference to sealing the slab with ultrasonic welding:

https://science.howstuffworks.com/ultrasonic-welding.htm

Rub your hands together rapidly. Notice anything? They warmed up, right? If you take a hammer and pound a metal surface rapidly and repeatedly, you will find that the place where the hammer strikes the metal warms up, too. In both these examples, the heat is due to friction. Now imagine rubbing your hands or pounding that hammer thousands of times per second. The frictional heat generated can raise the temperature significantly in a very short time. Basically, high-frequency sound (ultrasound) causes rapid vibrations within the materials to be welded. The vibrations cause the materials to rub against each other and the friction raises the temperature at the surfaces in contact. This rapid frictional heat is what sets the conditions for the materials to bind together.

[Fenntucky Mike]

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

You can see glue in them when you look closely. I don't really know cause I've not broken any apart but I'd think you would see all kinds of damage on them if someone tampered with them. Because they seal them pretty good just by looking at the ones I've had slabbed. There's gobs around them in certain places that looks like someone glued them. 

We use Ultrasonic blades on our machines all the time. The machine takes a power source, we typically run 408 - 208v, this goes to a generator which increases the cycles from 60Hz to 20kHz, this is sent to a transducer which converts the electrical energy into a mechanical motion via piezoelectric ceramic disks, which create a pressure wave that propagates through a slug at the bottom of the transducer, this intern is attached to a horn which is machined specifically to vibrate at a specific frequency with a desired gain. You can also install "boosters" to increase or limit the gain at the horn.

This is as good of an explanation as I've seen as to how an ultrasonic stack works. 

How does your Ultrasonic Probe/Stack work? | Dukane

It's pretty awesome. If you LIGHTLY touch a horn vibrating at 20kHz it feels like the smoothest thing ever, apply a little pressure and you'll burn your finger prints off. They also make some of the worst noise in the world if they aren't running correctly or are damaged.

 

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

You can see glue in them when you look closely. I don't really know cause I've not broken any apart but I'd think you would see all kinds of damage on them if someone tampered with them. Because they seal them pretty good just by looking at the ones I've had slabbed. There's gobs around them in certain places that looks like someone glued them. 

I don't think they use glue. 

Not all holders that have been  tampered with show "all kinds of damage on them".

[Hoghead515]

That's what I was actually meaning. It leaves those gobs of stuff that looks like glue. That's pretty cool how that works. I guess I shouldn't have said glue. It could be taken the wrong way. Ive seen it done in a video. Press those slabs together and seal them. Pretty cool technology. I know what I meant but didn't know how to say it. 

[Hoghead515]

Just now, MarkFeld said:

I don't think they use glue. 

Not all holders that have been  tampered with show "all kinds of damage on them".

I didn't know that. I figured they'd show pry marks and cut marks where people try to open them. I've never opened any up before. Was just assuming. It's good to know I'm wrong tho.  Learned something new. Always happy to learn. 

 

[Revenant]

1 minute ago, Hoghead515 said:

I didn't know that. I figured they'd show pry marks and cut marks where people try to open them. I've never opened any up before. Was just assuming. It's good to know I'm wrong tho.  Learned something new. Always happy to learn. 

 

I think it's always still a good idea to know who you're buying from and know that you're dealing with someone reputable, even if its a slab coin, if you're buying coins especially on the high end. Slabs can be tampered with if you're good. I've seen and heard of people being able to split them, and slabs (and stickers) can be faked.

[Hoghead515]

1 minute ago, Revenant said:

I think it's always still a good idea to know who you're buying from and know that you're dealing with someone reputable, even if its a slab coin, if you're buying coins especially on the high end. Slabs can be tampered with if you're good. I've seen and heard of people being able to split them, and slabs (and stickers) can be faked.

I agree. I make sure now that I check out the seller good and check their reputation. I've learned my lesson. I guess you could still probably get had but it helps a little better to check them out. 

[Hoghead515]

I'm glad to know now that slabs don't always show signs of damage when they been opened. I always thought they were sealed tighter than that where you had to damage them to open them. Thank you all for sharing that with me. I'll keep that in the back of my mind now. I always figured you could see if they cut the plastic seal to pop them apart.   I do know there are spots that look like glue around them. I've seen them on slabs of coins I've submitted. There will be a few spots usually. I guess where the plastic seals together. Someone could mistake it as glue. A long time ago when I was first getting on this forum I seen a thread on it. I think Lisa or someone replied and explained what it was. That's been a few months ago. I think it may have been in the "Ask NGC" category.  I was thinking that may have been what the guy who revived this thread was seeing and mistaking it from someone tampering with them. Then again someone may have been tampering with them. Thank you all for the knowledge. I will know better now that they can be opened without damage being done to the holder. I always thought they were tamper proof. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Hoghead515

[Henri Charriere]

It's too bad we never got a definitive answer to the OP's fairly straightforward question:

"HOW CAN YOU TELL IF AN NGC [encapsulation] HAS BEEN OPENED?"

With the latest generation of holders -- including the one offered by a competitor which features a security chip which can be checked with a smart phone, I suspect this, and other innovations, has made compromising the integrity of encapsulation with labels featuring colorful graphics, difficult if not impossible.

[comicdonna]

CGC changed their slab material a few years ago because Barex was no longer available.  The new material pretty much shatters into multiple pieces when you try to pry open the slab.  It's definitely more tamper proof.   I wonder if NGC changed their material as well?

[RWB]

Look for blood stains on the label.....