This is Really Alarming - Pics of Counterfeit Coins in Fake ANACS/NGC Slabs!

[MunkyMan95]

For those who haven't already heard:

 

Post ATS

 

Member UtahCoin wrote:

 

The seller in China where that fake slab came from sent me some pictures of other slabs. I gave him the impression that I might want to buy "big" quantities of his admitted counterfeit slabs and coins. He sent lots of pictures and I transcribed the slab details and have posted them below. Take this information at face value for what it is. He is willing to sell me any of these at prices far below what a genuine coin would cost. Also attached is a picture of some of the slabs he claims are his.

 

 

NGC

1795 Bust Dollar AU55 1871265-009

1795 Bust AU55 1515842-002

1795 Bust AU50 562290-001

1795 Bust AU55 1925095-002

1796 Bust XF40 398818-005

Trade Dollars

1877 S Trade Dollar AU55 562449-008

1877 S MS62 1500053-004

1876 S MS61 3003606-008

1875 S MS61 3003606-008

1877 S MS60 3022418-004

1877 S MS63 1850580-010

1875 S XF45 2068372-004

 

ANACS

1801 Bust Dollar VF20 2727654 All Old Style Slab

1800 Bust VF35 2820185

1875 CC Trade AU58 Details Cleaned 2951037

1877 S MS60 Details Cleaned DDR 2965234

1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2964950

1878 S AU58 Details Cleaned 2951825

1878 S AU55 Details Cleaned 2951825

ANACS Trade Dollars (Cont.)

1878 S EF40 Details Cleaned 2951835

1875 CC AU55 Details Cleaned 2909411

1873 S EF45 Details Cleaned 1504664

1878 S EF45 2731036

1873 CC EF40 Details Cleaned 2950086

1875 CC AU50 Details Corroded 1504683

 

 

Here's the earlier post he was referring to:

 

Post

[MAULEMALL]

Wow MM,,, I missed that when I was reading ATS earlier... Thanks for the link.

[MarkFeld]

I agree and suspect that it is, as they say, "only the tip of the iceberg".

[Oldtrader3]

I looked up a couple of the NGC slab numbers. They are legit slab numbers for the coin and grade indicated. If he is planning on selling "quantities" of each number, that is going to cause many people problems.

[stinkycheese1]

...my god...

 

Heh. A member of the forum last year told me this:

"PCGS and NGC encapsulated gold coins are geniune. I do not have to worry about counterfeit gold coins if they are in PCGS or NGC holders."

 

Not anymore I guess!

 

I actually wrote this down on a piece of paper and taped it to my computer, and I read it when I am getting obessive about counterfeit slabs/coins. The good news is so far I have not seen any counterfeit gold coins in counterfeit slabs. Until that happens, I think I'm safe. I know my NGC slab is real because I sent it directly to NGC.

 

PS: good post munkeyman!

[MikeInFL]

The next question, to me, is...

What is PCGS/NGC/ANACS doing to combat these counterfeiters?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to add: I just posted a question to this effect on the "Ask NGC" forum.]

[MunkyMan95]

The next question, to me, is...

What is PCGS/NGC/ANACS doing to combat these counterfeiters?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to add: I just posted a question to this effect on the "Ask NGC" forum.]

What can they do? I've been brainstorming some ideas, and I've come up with nothing even remotely concrete of an answer.

[MikeInFL]

I can think of quite a few things...

 

An education campaign showing the countefeits and noting the differences between a real and a fake one.

 

Linking certification number to a picture of the coin and providing access via the internet.

 

Providing a hotline/contact e-mail for suspected countefeit slabs to be taken for confirmation.

 

Offering a bounty on counterfeit slabs.

 

Changing their slabs to include newer, anti-counterfeiting features (RFID tag for example).

 

....and that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other ideas.... I just hope that the TPG's aren't just sticking their heads in the sand, because frankly (and to me), the only real advantage to buying coins in TPG holders is the authenticity guarantee. If that becomes suspect, I think the whole house of cards may come crumbling down (as was alluded to by Pat B. and others).....Mike

 

 

[MunkyMan95]

If the Chinese can get this good already, I'm sure there would be ways to counterfeit just about any other security measure that the TPG's could employ.

 

An education campaign might help, but I doubt that it's just one person or organization pumping out these slabs. There may be differences in the way each outfit produces their fake slabs, and they are probably changing all the time.

 

A bounty on counterfeit slabs should already be offered. I don't know why none of the TPG's have done this yet.

 

Good ideas Mike.

[MikeInFL]

If the Chinese can get this good already, I'm sure there would be ways to counterfeit just about any other security measure that the TPG's could employ.

 

A fair point, but at least the TPGs (who are making money, presumably) would stay one step ahead, limit our exposure, and protect their revenues. To me, inaction is undefendable.

[MunkyMan95]

If the Chinese can get this good already, I'm sure there would be ways to counterfeit just about any other security measure that the TPG's could employ.

 

A fair point, but at least the TPGs (who are making money, presumably) would stay one step ahead, limit our exposure, and protect their revenues. To me, inaction is undefendable.

 

Maybe we, as collectors, should give them a jumpstart? Maybe the TPG's would take an uproar from collectors as a sign that they really need to do something?

[MikeInFL]

Does this help?

 

 

 

UPROAR

 

 

 

 

[DC Dawg]

What could they do??

[MikeInFL]

Sorry, I don't understand your question, Scott.

[MunkyMan95]

Does this help?

 

 

 

UPROAR

 

 

 

 

 

Not quite

[jesbroken]

As soon as enough buyers show up to the slaughter they will start making them out of silver in the correct weight and then the real atrocities will occur.

[braddick]

I agree and suspect that it is, as they say, "only the tip of the iceberg".

 

 

 

Here's another interesting thread from ATS that got burried.

[James_OldeTowne]

This makes my stomach churn. Of course, fake slabs have been around for at least fifteen years, but not in the evident quantities of these newer Chinese fakes. Not good, not good at all!

[cpm9ball]

The next question, to me, is...

What is PCGS/NGC/ANACS doing to combat these counterfeiters?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to add: I just posted a question to this effect on the "Ask NGC" forum.]

What can they do? I've been brainstorming some ideas, and I've come up with nothing even remotely concrete of an answer.

 

Why couldn't Pay Pal create a "special" funds transfer mechanism with a Trojan Horse embedded in it? If it is determined that a seller is listing counterfeit coins and/or slabs, all electronic funds transfers would be processed through this special accounting system. As soon as the seller accessed their Pay Pal account for any reason, the virus would be released and destroy their hard drive.

 

Just a thought!

 

Chris

[MorganMan]

The next question, to me, is...

What is PCGS/NGC/ANACS doing to combat these counterfeiters?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to add: I just posted a question to this effect on the "Ask NGC" forum.]

What can they do? I've been brainstorming some ideas, and I've come up with nothing even remotely concrete of an answer.

 

Why couldn't Pay Pal create a "special" funds transfer mechanism with a Trojan Horse embedded in it? If it is determined that a seller is listing counterfeit coins and/or slabs, all electronic funds transfers would be processed through this special accounting system. As soon as the seller accessed their Pay Pal account for any reason, the virus would be released and destroy their hard drive.

 

Just a thought!

 

Chris

 

 

Because in these times, the guy would then sue PayPal for damages to his hard drive, and win millions given to him by a liberal california jury.....

 

MM

[physics-fan3.14]

If the Chinese can get this good already, I'm sure there would be ways to counterfeit just about any other security measure that the TPG's could employ.

 

A fair point, but at least the TPGs (who are making money, presumably) would stay one step ahead, limit our exposure, and protect their revenues. To me, inaction is undefendable.

 

Well, for a case study just look at the BEP. That is why we keep getting new and more outlandish looking funny money ever couple of years: BEP is continually trying to stay one or two steps ahead of counterfeiters and they come up with new technologies to prevent it. Now, the TPGs obviously don't have the resources of the BEP, or the engineers, I'm guessing, but there has to be a couple of things they could do. They probably have been waiting because they are more expensive, but now is the time to implement them.

 

NGC - are you listening? This is your chance to be a leader in the industry yet again!

[chinook]

Maybe collectors will have to learn to grade and detect bad coins.

 

If collectors learn how to do this then the need for TPG's will be gone.

 

 

[Revenant]

My collection enjoys one of the ultimate protections. Most of my collecting interests involve only coins worth less than $100. They're not worth counterfeiting.

[Just Bob]

Hey! Another "low -ender" like myself!

[Conder101]

Time for me to be the wet blanket.

 

An education campaign showing the counterfeits and noting the differences between a real and a fake one.

I'm sure the counterfeiters will appreciate the education so they know what they got wrong and what corrections to make.

 

Linking certification number to a picture of the coin and providing access via the internet.

This is good and probably workable assuming the pictures are very high quality, with listing of identifying features and quality close-ups of those features so you can compare the coin to the pictures and find those marks.

 

Providing a hotline/contact e-mail for suspected counterfeit slabs to be taken for confirmation.

And what is the hotline for? To let them know know you are sending in a potential fake slab so they can do a priority examination of it? If so, not bad but it still means you have to buy the coin and hopefully the seller will allow you enough time for it to go in, be checked, and come back. Then if it is fake hopefully you can get a refund.

 

Offering a bounty on counterfeit slabs.

How much of a bounty? To small and you probably won't get a lot of people interested in seeking them out. To high and the counterfeiters can make money simply making the fakes and sending them in for the bounty.

 

Changing their slabs to include newer, anti-counterfeiting features (RFID tag for example).

Good idea, although I have no clue what those features would be. RFID's won't work. If they broadcast a signal to a reader, that signal can be recorded and other RFID's can be programmed to broadcast that same signal and the reader will show them as real as well.

 

Why couldn't Pay Pal create a "special" funds transfer mechanism with a Trojan Horse embedded in it? If it is determined that a seller is listing counterfeit coins and/or slabs, all electronic funds transfers would be processed through this special accounting system. As soon as the seller accessed their Pay Pal account for any reason, the virus would be released and destroy their hard drive.

Viruses have a way of escaping out into the real world. What happens when that virus put out by Paypal starts destroying hard drives of people who are not counterfeiting slabs? What is Paypal's liability?

[Bruceswar]

Maybe collectors will have to learn to grade and detect bad coins.

 

If collectors learn how to do this then the need for TPG's will be gone.

 

 

Is this not something every collector should know a good bit about?? Grading? Oh wait.. I think I have gone off on rants about this long ago and recent and again..

[Zoins]

Linking certification number to a picture of the coin and providing access via the internet.

This is good and probably workable assuming the pictures are very high quality, with listing of identifying features and quality close-ups of those features so you can compare the coin to the pictures and find those marks.

I like this idea and have mentioned it several times for both the TPGs and the CAC.

[DC Dawg]

Sorry, I don't understand your question, Scott.

In your post, you asked what NGC and PCGS was doing about these fakes. I wanted to know what could they do? I do not know they have any recourse against an overseas operator... do they?

 

Scott

[just-john]

When you read about these counterfeit coins in fake slabs keep in mind they don't make 1 or 2 but hundreds or thousands so when you say---- Most of my collecting interests involve only coins worth less than $100. They're not worth counterfeiting.--50 bucks times 500 still adds up $125,000 dollars .Thats big money with the multiples where people make 150 bucks a month. FAKE COINS don't scare me FAKE AIRCRAFT EngineParts FAKE BOLTS NUTS some stuff from China will hurt you in the pocket some could put you in the ground But I could be wrong

[Revenant]

When you read about these counterfeit coins in fake slabs keep in mind they don't make 1 or 2 but hundreds or thousands so when you say---- Most of my collecting interests involve only coins worth less than $100. They're not worth counterfeiting.--50 bucks times 500 still adds up $125,000 dollars .Thats big money with the multiples where people make 150 bucks a month. FAKE COINS don't scare me FAKE AIRCRAFT EngineParts FAKE BOLTS NUTS some stuff from China will hurt you in the pocket some could put you in the ground But I could be wrong

 

Yes, but it's hard to imagine somebody going through the effort to counterfeit both the coin and the holder for a relatively low dollar coin when there are coins out there that are much more valuable to fake. The vast majority of what we're seeing being faked would go for much more than $1000. I agree that it is more than likely financially viable to fake cheaper coins, but that's not what they're doing. If that starts to change then I'll re-evaluate my position.