Possibly the Beginning of the End. Prediction for 2008.

[braddick]

Possibly the beginning of the end for slabs.

At least in the form we're used to seeing PCGS (and, NGC) slabs/holders. Certification is going to need to take it to another level of sophistication for continued market confidence and security, as the idea of simply sealing two plastic shells together with a paper insert and the host coin to secure the integrity of a coin/grade/value is fast becoming antiquitated.

 

These photos were some to come across my desk this week as I continue to investigate the connection between counterfeit Service holders and the profiteers who offer them.

 

 

I personally believe we're going to see, as soon as 2008, a shake-up within the coin community pretty much unlike any other we've witnessed before.

 

It should prove to be an interesting and wild ride as I think the above evidence is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

[realone]

I can see a change coming, one can call it a new beginning but it definitely shouldn't be call an ending. US mint had the same problem when China and others started counterfeiting out money supply. That obviously was a bigger problem, I don't see them doing that at this point. Right now I hate to say put copying the slabs is probably a piece of cake for them since they are the king of cheap plastics. They seem to screw up the actual coins themselves on a regular basis but the plastic is easy. Now the TPG's are going to (assuming they haven't already) come up with a stopper, it could be in many forms but I am sure they are motivated to do it, we just have to wait and see, until then ignore foreign countries selling crapola on ebay (that seems pretty simple as this point). Next step is to educate oneself as to what the real slabs look like as well as the coin in the slab. And lastly don't buy from people you don't know. I stopped buying off of ebay 1 and 1/2 years ago and since then have only bought from reputable dealers and Auction houses. So far I don't believe that I have run into any snags.

The problem can be solved and change is good and security is good, step on it TPG's (just a hint).

[DC Dawg]

I wonder if there is copyright or trademark issue here?

Oh well... that's for the lawyers ATS to deal with.

 

Scott

[bsshog40]

As I see it, just about anything can be counterfieted. Eevn if the TPG's did something to the slabs that was concealing of some sort, it would still be hard to buy these by pictures alone to determine if they are geniune.

[realone]

As I see it, just about anything can be counterfieted. Eevn if the TPG's did something to the slabs that was concealing of some sort, it would still be hard to buy these by pictures alone to determine if they are geniune.

 

True except maybe one who is not an expert or willing to take a risk or both should not buy it via photos over ebay. If it is in hand which can easily be done via a dealer (known or unknown) or the BST one can inspect and return if unhappy. It seems the problem is mainly on ebay where the liars say everything a buyer wants to hear, that it can be returned if not fully satisfied etc. Yeah what Chinamon is Ganggun province is going to return your money.

[pendragon1998]

How about slabs with a RF chip embedded in them. We can all buy a reader and then we'll know which slabs are real!

 

 

 

 

kidding.

[cpm9ball]

Given the financial resources and the ability to acquire the right technology, there isn't anything that can't be copied today. I recall back in the 70's when a science magazine ran an article on how to construct an atomic bomb. I don't know how many copies were sold before the government learned of it and ordered them pulled from the shelves.

 

Chris

[pendragon1998]

That's not too hard. Wikipedia has general plans. Someone with a college degree in physics and the parts could probably manage to assemble one today (which is frightening).

[SatTech]

Or just listen to the U2 album backwards...

[cpm9ball]

That's not too hard. Wikipedia has general plans. Someone with a college degree in physics and the parts could probably manage to assemble one today (which is frightening).

 

Why, of course! How stupid of me! Back in the early 70's everybody browsed Wikipedia on their personal computer that was the size of my house where the temperature had to be maintained at 58-64 degrees.

 

Chris

[Conder101]

I wonder if there is copyright or trademark issue here?

Oh well... that's for the lawyers ATS to deal with.

Not just across the street, they've been copying ANACS and NGC slabs as well. But what are you going to do sue some unknown Chinese company in US court? {sarcasm on} I'm so glad that has been so successful with all of the other counterfeit products that have been made in China.{sarcasm off}

 

How about slabs with a RF chip embedded in them. We can all buy a reader and then we'll know which slabs are real!

Well if a reader can read the signals, then the signals can be recorded and a chip can be programmed to broadcast those same signals and placed into a counterfeit slab with the same type, date, and mint, and the same serial number. Now the reader will say that slab is real too. It doesn't matter if the signals are encoded, you don't have to know what they decode to, you just have to broadcast the same signals.

 

I recall back in the 70's when a science magazine ran an article on how to construct an atomic bomb. I don't know how many copies were sold before the government learned of it and ordered them pulled from the shelves.

And it was a pretty interesting article too. Yes I have a copy.

[kryptonitecomics]

I don't see a change coming this year.....maybe never.........those in the know can protect themselves pretty easily with knowledge of coins, how the grade and the characteristics of legitimate slabs and newbies will continue to take their lumps unfortunatly.....wish it werent the case

[relicsncoins]

For the life of me, I can't understand why we continue to do trade with a country that will not crack down on the continued counterfieting of our currency, both past and present.

 

JJ

[ant]

$$$$$

 

[physics-fan3.14]

That's not too hard. Wikipedia has general plans. Someone with a college degree in physics and the parts could probably manage to assemble one today (which is frightening).

 

Well, see, the problem is really getting the stuff. It's not as hard to construct once you know what is going on, you just have to obtain the nuclear material from some African warlord.

[MikeInFL]

While I think the title to this thread is a bit sensational, counterfeit slabs are worrisome....

 

So what's the next step to ensure the sancity of a TPG slab/grade?

 

Photographs of each coin and a link to a publically available website seems to solve most problems, although not for face-to-face transactions where a computer isn't available.

 

Thoughts?

[MikeKing]

just do a lookup of the coin's number and that would prove whether it's real or not.

[MikeInFL]

just do a lookup of the coin's number and that would prove whether it's real or not.

 

Not good enough. The countefeit NGC slab posted in another thread has a valid cert number, but the coin and insert are countefeit.

[braddick]

just do a lookup of the coin's number and that would prove whether it's real or not.

Mike, so far many of the fake slabs are using genuine coin certification numbers.

 

_______________________________________________

 

Even the 'PCGS' plastic and wooden boxes are being counterfeited to a small degree...

 

[gmarguli]

What makes anyone think that the Chinese company producing the slabs for the TPG aren't producing the exact same slabs for their buddies in China?

 

I assume all the TPG get their slabs from China. I've been told that 2 of them do, so I assume the other 2 do also.

[WinstonWare]

I’m surprised that with all the effort to make a nice slab and insert they’ve got a PCGS style slab with an NGC style insert. The emperor has no clothes

[jesbroken]

If NGC, PCGS, ANACS and ICG as the top four would offer photographs of the coins with the certification #, it would put a hamper on the CF sales, I would think. I believe that PCGS already does this(that might be registry only), so why someone wouldn't check PCGS out before buying is beyond me. This could immediately affect future counterfeits.

[bsshog40]

If NGC, PCGS, ANACS and ICG as the top four would offer photographs of the coins with the certification #, it would put a hamper on the CF sales, I would think. I believe that PCGS already does this(that might be registry only), so why someone wouldn't check PCGS out before buying is beyond me. This could immediately affect future counterfeits.

 

Not everyone that buys these coins/slabs, and keeps these counterfeiters in business, have access to all this or even have the knowledge it exists.

[RWB]

Through a Chinese organization I can have duplicates made of virtually any product from a CAT scanner to plastic slabs and “coins” to put in them. I can send my specifications for 500,000 PDAs or “ipod” knockoffs and receive the finished products in 6 weeks. Vendors will bid to produce the items and throw in extra products such as batteries.

 

The Chinese (both mainland and Taiwan) production engines care nothing for intellectual property, copyright, patents or quality except as the buyer specifies it and refuse to pay unless the product is as specified. Import/export certificates, bonds, letters of credit, lab tests, certifications are all readily available in any language needed.

 

Need a few bags of Morgans? They can be made on correct planchets, with correct dates and mintmarks from correct face and edge dies. Perfect for TV or newspaper promotions….

 

I could go on but you get the point….

 

In the past I made a point of stating that all of my books were printed in the USA. Maybe we need to be willing to support the local US economy and pay a little more for US products. (Kind of like fruit and vegetables – compare an imported “strawberry” with the real thing grown on a local farm.)

 

End of preachy comment…..

 

[Mozin]

I see this as a problem for the grading services to solve, not the dealer/collector's problem. The grading services charge a significant fee to provide a secure holder and to insert a proper label into this holder. For this fee, the grading services also guarantee the package to be as it appears. We are not just paying for a grade opinion.

 

There are certainly many things the grading services should do now to improve the security of their products, but I don't think we will see any changes until it hits the fan. Grading services are in business to make the largest profit they can make, simple as that.

 

If the Chinese criminal element manages to create a significant problem with phony PCGS/NGC/ANACS slabs, something will change in the design of the slabs. It will not happen until the grading services are forced to make the change.

 

If coin collectors determine the slabs are not totally secure, we will see a total collapse of the coin collecting society. Many of us will see our collection worth pennies on the dollar for what we paid. Those collectors that do not collect encapsulated coins will have many coins to buy, but there will be very few buyers left. I for one, depend on the grading services providing the services they are paid to perform. When that ends, I hope I have already disposed of my entire collection.

[rbrown4]

Totally disturbing as far as I am concerned.

 

Very scary indeed.

 

Rey

[bsshog40]

Anything and everything can be counterfeited Mozin. The slabs used by the Top Tpg's are not cheapo plastic. There is design to them. But just as our currency keeps changing to "HELP" stop counterfeits, it will always be an on-going problem. I don't rely solely on TPG's to authenticate my coins. It takes knowledge yourself to be able to catch this stuff. Luckily I have these boards and others that are more knowledgeable than I am, but I have also learned enough here to be able to detect some counterfeits myself. I will probably still make a mistake every now and then but a person can't rely solely on someone else for thier collection.

[CHABSENTIA]

Possibly a disruption. If this were to be too wide spread and the holders became suspect then all one would have to do would be to crack it out of its holder and resubmit it for the latest holder.

 

 

I would imagine that the TPGs would do it for either no cost or a small cost, If only one offered the service then people would be re-submitting just that one and the others would lose volume and sales.

[Conder101]

In one respect the TPG's might love it. When a new counterfeit comes out the TPG unveils a new holder. The old holder loses confidence because "it was being counterfeited" and values for coins in the old holders start dropping. So everyone starts sending in their old slabs for reholdering. You could make a pretty good profit by that alone. Every time a new counterfeit appears you get $5 a coin to reholder all of your previously slabbed coins. Don't have to spend money on talented graders just lower paid slab sealers.

[BONGOBONGO-migration]

BONGO KNOW THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE RIGHT OR WRONG, JUST OPINION BASED ON PERSPECTIVE AND KNOWLEDGE

 

BONGO DID NOT LIKE OLD PLASTIC AND BELIEVE IT WAS A RIOTOUS ASSEMBLAGE OF ILL MACHINED PARTS . BONGO LIKES NEW PLASTIC BETTER & CAN APPRECIATE THE ENGINEERS COMPETENCE AND DEVELOPMENT QUALITIES.

 

THIS DOESNT MEAN THAT BONGO WOULD LIKE TO OWN NEW PLASTIC