TonerGuy

Im going through this right now with trying to ship a collection from the US to Europe.

USPS will ship it but they wont insure it for more than $49 once it leaves the US.

Dealers usually have special arraignments / agreements with third-party shippers to send coins, and they are almost always covered under a private insurance policy the dealer has.

Shipping internationally if you dont have private insurance is a shoot. It might get there, it might not.

I think I have it worked out... just waiting on a couple of quotes for private insurance.

If I want to go with an art transportation company, door-to-door, safe and secure, it will cost me about $5500 without import duties/taxes or insurance. 

FedEx... probably less safe but with their insurance will be about $4000 - w/o duties or taxes.

Be aware, if you use one of the common carriers for outside the US, unless you are shipping on an account that has been approved to ship coins, you will be SOL if your package is lost. Even private insurance won't cover it.

Does anyone know - as a seller - if Great Collections gives advances on coins placed with them for sale ?

And how does it work with raw coins that are submitted ? Can you send raw coins, get them graded and put them on a reserve price? Do you pay a restocking fee and their grading fee if they dont sell ? Or do you have to keep them on GC until they sell ?

On 10/26/2021 at 11:58 PM, Tyrock said:

My table is well stocked, neat and I have a buying sign.

How about a sign that says "I pay more" -- every dealer has a buying sign. Or "I'll beat other offers" or "I buy entire collections" -- Sometimes you might have to take a loss on some coins to be able to make money off the few that are truly special.

On 11/6/2021 at 6:44 PM, MarkFeld said:

Sounds like you’ve been busy, Michael! I’ll check and let you know what, if anything, I find out. Back at you next week, either way.
If you happen to have a rare coin insurance policy, the first thing I’d recommend is to check with the carrier and see what they say about shipping options.

More than busy! Call me next week when you have time. My cell remains the same if you still have it. Otherwise, I can DM you.

I am 6 hours ahead of you... BTW

On 11/6/2021 at 10:07 PM, gmarguli said:

This is incorrect. Shipping cash is not allow frequently, but collectible items such as coins are OK. I've used all 3 carriers you mentioned to ship coins without issue. Personally, I find UPS to be fastest/cheapest and use them over the ones you mentioned.

As for insurance, you can get single package insurance. 

I don't know where in Europe you are, but I'd suggest contacting a large local dealer/auction house and seeing if they could arrange for the package to be sent to them and use their insurance policy.

I think within the US, its okay but outside the US I think there are restrictions... unfortunately UPS isnt very clear either...

Here is a list of their restricted items... its doesnt mention coins specifically but it does mention Articles of exceptional value (eg, works of art, antiques, precious stones, gold and silver) and Money and negotiable items

https://www.ups.com/nl/en/help-center/shipping-support/prohibited-items.page

Is there a reason to collect non-toners ? I dont know one... collecting toners seems axiomatic

On 11/6/2021 at 5:48 PM, MarkFeld said:

Michael, long time, no talk! I hope you’ve been doing well.
I’m unclear as to whether you’re asking about shipping from or to the U.S., internationally. Let me know and I’ll see if I can find out anything for you.

Maaarrrrrkkkkk ! How are you my friend !!! Please let me know if you find out anything... Grazie! If you have time, lets set up a call and catch up! So much to tell you... divorce, cancer, kidney failure... new love, new business... new home...

Okay everyone -- sorry I wasnt clear... My coins are in the US. I am in Europe. I would like to ship my coins to Europe.

I did my research. Most shippers like FedEx, USPS, and DHL either dont allow coins/currency to be shipped or have such low insurance rates I would not take the chance.

I was hoping there are specialized companies that just deal in shipping valuables such as collectibles, antiques, art and furniture... I guess no one here has done this before...

If I sold my collection it would be sold in the US. I wouldnt bother shipping it to Europe to sell...

On 11/6/2021 at 12:10 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

get in touch with locals who routinely ship valuables overseas for available options.

Got the names of any locals in the US ?

I haven't been actively collecting for a while... I moved to Europe over two years ago... there's not many opportunities to buy US coins in Europe. I'm stuck between selling or moving my collection overseas, if possible

Has anyone ever shipped a large collection overseas ?

Dont say carry them on a flight... there's just too many coins to do that and I wouldnt risk it.

Is there an international art shipper or collectibles shipper that people know of, have used and/or can recommend?

Thanks...

Does anyone know if this is biggest mistake PCGS has ever made that they have acknowledged publicly, mechanical or otherwise ?

There has to be bigger... this is only a $40,000 mistake (technically not actually)

Was there some penny that turned or some rare ASE that was a 70 that developed spots... I cant really remember.

7 hours ago, mumu said:

But I just dont see how a mechanical error ends up being photographed for coinfacts.

 

Interesting point...

On 3/5/2017 at 4:42 AM, WoodenJefferson said:

Ethically no, financially, yes. Just about every business model has a small percentage of human error built into it, course the goal is 0 % but anytime you deal with humans there are going to be mistakes. You attempt to keep those mistakes down to a minimum with quality control, but some slip through and once the product leaves your control you wait until there is a legitimate complaint from the buyer before you do anything. With grading coins, you are dealing with a unique singularity here and cannot trigger a recall of sorts to correct a defect.

If there is a media storm, as with what happened with the 1909 VDB proof, then yes, it would behoove the company to take quick action to resolve the error and prove that yes, they do make an occasional mistake and they will, within their powers to correct that mistake.

 

As someone who owned a small business I can say its really not that difficult to put into place policies that prevent large errors. For instance, any TPG could put into policy that any coin over X value ($10,000, $25,000 ect) go through a 2nd final verification process/inspection before the slab heads out of their building. They may already do this. If they dont, I would be very surprised.

If your graders miss a UCAM v CAM designation on a state quarter, its a mistake but not one thats going to leave egg on your face. But if you miss a $40,000 mechanical error you're going to have some explaining to do or at least you're gonna have to pass out a lot more grape-flavored Koolaid for the masses to drink.

If a mistake like that happened in my business, someone would have been fired.

38 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

I spoke with Ron Guth on this subject several years ago.  If someone buys an already graded PCGS slab in the open marketplace and it turns out to be wrong the guarantee will often protect them.  But if someone sends in a coin to be slabbed and it is misattributed or graded wrong in such a way as to provide a windfall to the submitter when it is corrected the guarantee will not apply.  The guarnatte is to protect buyers that depend on the accuracy of the slab when making their purchase decisions, not to provide a lucky submitter with a windfall if they make an error.  The submitter hasn't risked anything based on the PCGS slab.

And thats the way it should and needs to be...

52 minutes ago, coinman_23885 said:

Does PCGS owe a duty to the would-be plaintiff above and beyond its guarantee/warranty?  I don't think it does, but if someone could devise a plausible theoretical basis for imputing liability outside of the guarantee, it would be a watershed case for the collectibles industry and perhaps warranties generally.   The numismatic community would be very wise to follow the case.

P.S.  Choice of law principles would seem to dictate that California law would apply.  California has unusually rich consumer protection statutes (compared to many other states).  Would any of those apply?

I wish I had more time to exhaustively research this but here's California's codes related to warranties...

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/m-1.shtml#warranties

The theory is just exactly why TPGs came into existence. They make the industry more trustworthy, liquid and professional. The idea of a TPG grade is that you can trust in it's accuracy and reliability, especially PCGS and NGC. Grading is subjective, but identifying a coin as either a proof or an mint state example is not usually open to debate. Therefore, trusting a reputable TPG to "get it right" is indeed what PCGS and NGC use as the basis for their success. It was a lawsuit over grade, I think its a loser. But if its about designation or a counterfeit coin, I think it may be a go. 

Here's an article in regards to counterfeit wines and a billionaire's lawsuit over them. Interestingly, Christie's, who authenticated the Jefferson owned wine, was originally a defendant but was dismissed based on a statute of limitations defense. Unfortunately, we dont know how a judge would have felt about the merits of his claim vs. Christie's...

http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/42436

http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2013/04/08/in-billionaires-legal-crusade-against-counterfeit-wine-money-is-the-least-of-it/#9c855202389b

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

Because I think they would say it was a mechanical error and that they would therefore, not have any liability.

Oh I think the subsequent purchaser could possibly file suit under a negligence claim though. The warranty wouldnt necessary need to apply. I dont think has happened yet simply because PCGS has rectified the situation or there wasnt enough damages to warrant a suit.  I dont think PCGS would let it go that far though.

6 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I have no problem with the result in this case. As, when all was said and done, the original submitter was denied being unjustly enriched, due to a mistake. But if he had already sold the coin to someone else and later refused to unwind the transaction, the buyer would be stuck, big time. In that scenario, I feel that the grading company should step up to the plate, but seriously doubt that they would.  

Why do you doubt that PCGS would honor the guaranty ?

2 hours ago, robec1347 said:

You are correct in that the mechanical error of mine was different from the VDB error, but I still believe it to be a mechanical not a grading error. During the whole thread, which consisted of 21 pages and 400 replies, he never once mentioned paying anything more than normal grading fees. He said numerous times how the coin's purchase price was $60+. If he had mentioned that he also ponied up $600 in grading fees for that coin alone, I would be the first to claim this to be a grading error. I'm pretty sure if he had paid those added fees it would have been mentioned.

Yeah that kind of makes me believe it was a mechanical error as well then.

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

Michael, yes, for various reasons (such as value, rarity, questions about man-made vs. mint-made flaws), more time is spent on some coins than others. However, that said, I remember having spirited debates from time to time over (even) very low value/common coins.

Ragarding the 1909-VDB - my guess is that it was was incorrectly input as a Proof, before it made it to the greading room, graded by the graders, who didn't notice the error, sealed in the holder and then shipped out, without the verifier catching the mistake.

When I graded at NGC, I spent a good portion of most days inspecting the coins (and the grading labels), after they had been graded and sealed. In addition to looking at the coins vs. their assigned grades, I checked the labels for errors such as date, mintmark, variety and designations such as MS, PR, PL, FH, etc.

That makes sense. It was probably a typo error to begin with and it just stayed that way through-out the process. Its still disconcerting that such a large dollar value mechanical error could happen and none of the graders/supervisors were able to catch it before it left. I assume that most graders are not as attentive as you used to be when you graded.

1 hour ago, robec1347 said:

I find it very difficult to believe that 3 graders missed all the signs of this not being a VDB proof. Much easier to believe this was an input error.

Thats why I asked Mark the question that I did. Your mechanical error above is easily understandable since the number of moderns that pass through PCGS and NGC on a daily basis must be remarkable.

A grand total of 130 proof 1909 VDBs have passed through PCGS's hands according to the Pop Report. Not a majority rarity but still a special coin. I dont know if TPGs treat coins like this differently than a 1999 Silver JFK. I would hope so though.

Still though, wouldnt PCGS charge $250 + 1% of the coin's value of the grading fee on a Matte Proof cent ? Based on their pricing guide thats a $650 grading fee. For that amount of money I think it would be reasonable to expect not to be on the wrong end of a mechanical error or a grading error.

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

No, it appears to be a mechanical error that they failed to catch before it left the PCGS premises.

In that case, wouldnt every mistake made by an TPG just simply be a "labelled" a mechanical error (no pun intended)?

Maybe I dont understand the difference between grading error and mechanical error. I thought a mechanical error is where the person who creates the label makes a mistake and the final inspection fails to catch it. Whereas, a grading error is where the all of the graders and the supervisor make the mistake and the coin passes through the process and the label accurate reflects the mistakes made by the graders.

I guess there is really no way to fully know if this was a mechanical error or a grading error. Unless PCGS admitted to a grading error. And we all know that wont happen. What TPG would admit to such a colossal mistake and possibly disparage their own services?

Mark - since you are probably the only person on this board with actual experience inside a grading room, perhaps you can answer this question...

Does a coin's value or uniqueness ever create a situation where the coin is treated differently and is more thoroughly reviewed than perhaps an Unc 1881-S Morgan Dollar? Or are they just passed through no matter how unique the coin is or its value ?

Oh so this appears to be a grading error not a simple mechanical error that they caught before it left PCGS premises.

Did PCGS call it a mechanical error, an actual grading error or have they been silent about it ?

Is there a dollar value where a CAC review begins to make sense ? $100 coin, a $500 coin an $1000+ coin ?

Also, what is CAC's position when it comes to toning ? Is their sticker also an endorsement of natural toning ? Or is that not even looked at ?

Sorry for perhaps rudimentary questions when it comes to CAC but Im just starting to look into them...

This should be an article or articles somewhere... Very well written and thought out.