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Everything posted by powermad5000

  1. Hello Capone. Without any pics it is hard to tell anything about your coin being a counterfeit, but I will relay what information I know and anyone is free to correct me if I am wrong about anything as I don't claim to be a full on expert nor do I claim to know everything. That being said, the 1891 CC year is not a "critical" collector year as the mintage number was 1,618,000. That does not mean that someone would not try to fake it and produce an illegitimate example as this is happening on coins across the hobby. The correct weight of all Morgan dollars is 26.73 grams, and if I am correct in saying, the mint was very strict with their tolerances and the acceptable deviation was only + or - 0.20 grams. That said, at 25.9 grams, I would be highly suspect that you have a legitimate example. Then again, is your scale accurate? Is it calibrated correctly for your location on the earth's surface and the pull of gravity at your position? The magnet test would only tell if it was made of a non silver metal or ferrous metal, but is no indication of the actual composition of the coin. A true Morgan 's composition was .900 silver, and .100 copper. A magnet would still not stick if it was made of .500 silver, .100 copper, and .400 nickel. A true Morgan's diameter is 38.1mm. With what information you have given, this is the most I am able to relay about your situation. My advice would be to send it into NGC and have them "put it through the paces" and see if you have a legitimate coin or not.
  2. I guess this would be the appropriate place to ask a question and start a lively discussion regarding ICG graded coins. To preface this discussion, I have noted an uptick (not exactly a flood) of ICG graded coins entering the selling arenas online and at coin shows. Many of these ICG graded coins are quite nice, but are they worth what sellers are asking for them? I have noticed many silver dollars and halves as well as copper, and other denominations. For the purpose of this discussion, I will focus more on the widely traded and collected silver dollars and half dollars. I have seen numerous recent sales of Morgan dollars graded MS67, MS66+, MS66, and even a handful of MS68 according to the ICG grades assigned to them. I have also noted recently Peace dollars ranging in grades from MS64+, MS65, MS65+, MS66, and even one MS67 which is a really hard grade to achieve on a Peace dollar. Silver dollars with such high grades would obviously command very high prices paid for them. The question I would like for people to comment on would be, are these high grades actually correct? Are the coins in these ICG holders truly high end MS? Before you answer that, let me expand this discussion to a small experiment I executed on four ICG graded coins; two Morgans, one Peace dollar, and one Walker half. For the purposes of the experiment, I acquired the ICG graded pieces at lesser values (i.e. not extremely high grades or very low mintage numbers - for example an 1882 S Morgan graded MS65 by ICG). I also made sure I did not pay any amount higher than what would be the low end of the MS spectrum so as not to suffer loss from this experiment. I cut the cases open very carefully and with extreme care, retrieved the coins from the ICG holders and immediately placed them into flips and sent them to NGC. After the wait, all four coins in this experiment came back graded two points lower than what the ICG label proclaimed (i.e. the MS65 came back from NGC graded as MS63). I was wondering if anyone else cuts open ICG, ANACS, or PCGS cases and submits them to NGC and what were the results of that? I then compared these to NGC graded coins of the same grades assigned by ICG to see if I could denote any difference in details that would make the two point difference, and when holding the two examples side by side, the differences in details were quite evident. So for everyone out there, are the coins from other third party graders really that grade and are they really worth the dollars you are paying for them? This should cause some thought for anyone who may have shelled out a good deal of hard earned money for say an ICG graded MS68 Morgan dollar to consider what they really have in their hand, where the differences in worth could be in the thousands. Once again, sure the coins look very nice, but what is the true grade? I am not looking to cause an argument with this discussion, but merely to hear from others who may have experimented in this way, and to cause some thought amongst collectors as to what we really are getting when we make these purchases. Thanks for reading and keeping comments thoughtful and polite.
  3. It took me about one second to see the poor quality of the imitation coin you have. The images on both sides are incorrect in size, there is terrible shaping and spacing on the lettering. There is no real layout or spacing of the stars on both sides, and the size and shape of the stars is not consistent throughout the obverse. The date is misshapen and in the incorrect position. The overall details are horrible. The clouds on the reverse side do not span the coin the way they should, and have no detail other than "blobs" of metal. The denticles are misshaped and uneven. The claws of the eagle have zero detail and look like they were drawn by a first grader. The banner is uneven, does not span the reverse properly, and the lettering of E Pluribus Unum is also not of consistent size. This is one of the poorest examples of an attempt to mislead I possibly have ever seen.
  4. Great thread Bob! Keep up the good work and keep this at the front of the counterfeit threads if you are able to. I was attacked by the ebay community for calling out a seller with a counterfeit (which is absolutely ridiculous for people to not want to maintain the integrity of this great hobby), so now I just report when I see counterfeits and I don't feel I need to explain myself to anyone, nor do I feel the least bit remorse for reporting the listings. I'd like to add one to your list, even though I have never ever bothered to look up coins on it, and am not sure if there are even any on the site, but I wouldn't trust Craigslist even if they had a money back guarantee.
  5. As a final update on this issue, not only did I not get the coin removed from sale, I got my own account suspended for trying. Apparently the policies prevent me from calling out a particular item or seller without making an official "report" of said such item or seller. I am ok with getting into trouble for trying to protect the integrity of this great hobby. Sadly, the coin is still for sale, so the main takeaway lesson here is BUYER BEWARE!
  6. I discovered more mistakes on this Morgan. There is no curve next to the lips at the edge of the mouth, the lips themselves are completely different, and the nose is larger and pointy compared to a true Morgan, leading to the disparaging overall detail of the coin. There are too many problems with this fake. As for an update, the seller got back to me, but as of this moment, the coin is still listed for sale. I am waiting and pressuring the seller to take the listing down and not sell the coin to anyone, and claim it as an insurance loss. I will keep everyone posted.
  7. Thanks for sharing Coinboy78. I am also glad you contacted NGC about this. The more everyone shares about these fakes, the less likely it is for anyone to have to suffer a loss. Knowledge is power. There is a book about your interest in the dies for Morgans. The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars by Leroy C. Van Allen and A. George Mallis. It contains a detailed listing of all known (at the time) die varieties. I myself am not a VAM collector, just a nice Morgan collector but I have acquired some VAM's. Hotlist 50's and Top 100's just through the buying process. Thanks again for sharing your experience!
  8. To clarify, I did NOT purchase this coin! I noticed the abnormalities right away while browsing coins today. Thanks to NGC and their eye opening and informative counterfeit updates, I got a feeling I was looking at a altered coin. I am not the kind of guy to try to hide defects on the coins I resell either. When my hopeful coins come back as Whizzed, Improperly cleaned, or Altered color, I leave them in the holder and bite the bullet on the loss. I have too much pride and cause for integrity of this lifelong hobby of mine to ever attempt to counterfeit a coin or worse try to pass the buck and sell a counterfeit. I am the guy out there reporting what I believe to be counterfeits to try to help out the poor guy who just doesn't know.
  9. I believe this to be a counterfeit 1889 CC Morgan. I am not aware of any VAM that would make the date look like this. I immediately noticed at first the misshapen 9, quickly followed by the "pile of metal" between the two 8's. What do you think???? If I am wrong, let me know. I think this was maybe an 1880 CC or a cheaper 1883 CC made to look like an 1889 CC. I had to crop the photos to protect the sellers identity so I don't have any "problems". I messaged the seller as to my concerns of the validity of this coin, but received no response. I believe if you got burned because of an unwatchful eye, that trying to resell a counterfeit so you are not out the money you spent is bad business.
  10. Great detail but distracting contact marks on both sides visible to the naked eye, and on the rims of both sides, I would say NGC would limit this to an MS64 at best or more likely to me an MS63. Still a really nice coin!
  11. If I were to try to figure the grade of your 1921 Morgan, I would say NGC will say UNC Details - Improperly cleaned. If it were to receive a numerical grade I would say it is a 62 at best. There is quite a bit of contact marks visible to the naked eye, as well as some detail missing in the curls of hair on the obverse and leaves of the wreath on the reverse that is not due to a weak strike. Your 1923 Peace dollar I would say NGC would say UNC Details - Improperly cleaned. As for the Peace if it were to receive a numerical grade, I would say it is a 60 at best. There is a lot of detail missing in the hair on the obverse and also in the lower feathers and claws on the reverse, as well as the eagle's neck.
  12. I would venture to say that NGC would grade this as F Details - Improperly Cleaned, Rim Damage