GoldFinger1969

Proof (?) High Relief Intrigue: / From an old Heritage Auction non-sale. I include Breen's comments because even if his facts sometimes didn't pan out, some of his statements here may have been independently verified. I highlighted the interesting sections: "...As Walter Breen said in 1977, "Proofs were evidently made on several occasions for presentation purposes, from more than one of the pairs of dies used for this issue, with two different edge collars, and in several different finishes." The earliest appearances of proof High Reliefs trace their origins to the collection of Chief Engraver Charles Barber, whose controversial role in the production of Saint-Gaudens' design is well documented elsewhere. The first auction appearance of the issue was in the Adolphe Menjou Collection (Numismatic Gallery, 6/1950), lot 1846. According to the lengthy lot description, the coin was obtained from "the widow of a gentleman associated with the Mint in 1907." The cataloger further states that two High Relief proofs were purchased from the lady, and these were "the only two proof specimens that have come to our attention." One year later a proof High Relief was offered in the ANA Sale (Jim Kelly, 8/1951), lot 770A. In his lot description Kelly offered considerable information about the identity of the gentleman associated with the Mint:"Acknowledged as the most beautiful United States coin, it has always been very popular with collectors as well as noncollectors. However, with all its popularity, there has always been a mystery surrounding Proofs of this issue. Only one specimen has been offered at public sale, Lot No. 1846 in the Menjou Sale. "With due respect to the cataloguer, I believe I am publishing for the first time the correct history and number of these coins struck. Mr. Newcomer, the famous numismatist, purchased these coins from the Barber Collection. Mr. Barber was one of the head engravers at the Mint during this period. There was a note with these coins stating that 'There were only five pieces struck on a medal press.' "I am indebted to Mr. Wayte Raymond for this information. He purchased all five pieces when he bought the Newcomer Collection."The fact that the coins came from Barber's collection should dispel any doubt about the coin's proof status. As chief engraver of the Mint, Barber would certainly understand the criteria for a proof coin, and he knew the circumstances of the coin's production better than anyone else. Breen points out the fact that there are considerably more than five specimens of proof High Relief double eagles known today, but Barber may have meant that only five specimens were struck at the particular time when this group of coins was created. Breen reports the coin in Kelly's description was made using edge collar 1, distinguished by the level bases of the M in UNUM. Research by proof gold specialist Dr. Robert Loewinger indicates that examples produced with this collar are of the Flat Rim variety. Only six Flat Rim High Reliefs have been certified as of this writing. If only one of the recorded submission events is a resubmission, the number of specimens certified would coincide exactly with the number Barber reports struck. Barber may well have given an accurate account of the striking of the Flat Rim High Reliefs in his note." Roger said in his book: "....there likely are several High Relief double eagles that do qualify as specially struck coins. The Waldo Newcomer pattern inventory lists several examples he purchased from the Charles Barber estate that had slightly different dies and curvature. Although these examples have not been identified by modern researchers, these coins were specially struck and qualify as Proofs under most numismatists’ interpretation of pattern and experimental strikes." Net-Net: It appears that some specially-struck coins by Barber got considered "proofs" (probably would be PL today) over the decades. The Newcomer collection apparently housed many/all of them at one time. Does anybody know when the last time NGC certified an MCMVII High Relief as proof ? Can I get that information off the NGC website ?

From a longer-term perspective after the 2009-11 rise in gold, you could make a case for the entire post-European Debt Crisis as being a consolidation period. Gold has basically been in a $1,600 - $2,000 trading range for YEARS. When we break out to the upside, $2,500 could come quickly.

Gold has gotten a nice bounce in the last 2 days as crypto imploded and the CPI allegedly cooled. Slowing inflation = Higher Gold Prices !!

Congrats to the Great QA !! A fantastic achievement !! How did you get into collecting Roosters (you can answer this in Hogheads's new thread if you prefer) ?

Rolling time periods eliminates period bias. If you were asked to compare precious metals/golds vs. stocks or bonds in 1980 and were told to use a 10-year time frame, it's going to be biased tremendously for gold. Do the same thing in 1990 or 2000 or 2010 and the results are very different. Rolling periods is like a best-of-7 sporting match. A 1-period time frame is like a sudden-death playoff match.

I am talking about absolute comparisions....the key is what time period do you use ? Rolling time periods sees how you do by advancing the starting and ending periods 1 year each. This eliminates selective starting and ending points. The charts you cite are meant to be a 1-time snapshot. You can't show the chart for dozens of time periods. But professionals generally use rolling time periods to discuss risk-adjusted returns over time.

I remember there was a gold seller there in the 2000's, certainly 1999/2000 last time I went there regularly. I thought it had 3 names in the title....wondering it it was Manfred, Tordella, and Brookes ?

Interesting about the Samaszko Hoard, the 2012 hoard found in a Carson City, Nevada recluses home after he died. There were about 1,200 Saint-Gaudens DEs and about 300 Eagles found in the hoard. Most were common dates or in worn condition so that they maybe sold for just over spot bullion. Gonna try and track down the finest ones from that hoard since apparently NGC gave them a label.

Roger covers it in his American Renaissance series.

Recent article in CoinWeek which I thought was very interesting: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/top-10-most-controversial-us-coins/ EliteCollection's coin heads the list. The 1933 Saint-Gaudens $20 Gold Double Eagle The Type 1 Standing Liberty Quarter The 1964-D Peace Dollar The 1804 Dollar The 1946 Roosevelt Dime The 1909-S VDB Cent The 1793 Chain Cent The $1,000,000,000,000 Platinum Coin The 1921 Zerbe Morgan Dollar The 1913 Proof Liberty Nickel

From CoinWeek: "...Specifically, the coins’ role of backing gold certificates was of high importance because by law the certificates were redeemable in gold coinage at two-thirds of their face value." Is this correct regarding Double Eagles ? What about the other one-third ? And I believe the book mentioned somewhere the percentage of gold certificates outstanding that had to be "backed" by Double Eagles (I don't believe other gold coins counted) which is different than the percentage redeemed above (I think). I'm not sure RWB had a section solely on Gold Certificates, I'll look for it or the key sections if he or nobody else doesn't chime in. Gold and Silver Certificates are a fascinating niche with how they interacted with the underlying metals and coins.

Did anybody correct the "well-known numismatist ?"

I think I see the term "Roman" in descriptions because people brought up on Breen's stuff look for that key word since the new terminology might not "grab" them. I kept getting the 2 different proofs from that era confused when I read about them in your book and QDB's. Had to break down all the key descriptives into the 2 camps: Roman Gold....Matte Proof....Satin Proof....Sandblasted....etc. The words would change and I wouldn't know which coin the author/article was talking about. And I believe you told me that the modern "shiny mirror-like" proof appearance that most of us know today didn't happen until a few decades later.

Where'd you get it ?

No, not talking about you, QA, or my friends here. The scamsters cherry-picking starting and ending points. That's why ROLLING time periods eliminates time bias.

No, wasn't referring to my friends here ....talking about the late-night infomercials or dishonest "gold bugs" talking about gold's returns from 1973 to 1980 as "inflation protection" or the annual returns from 1973 to the present or 1992 or 2009 to the present. The numbers are cherry-picked. The 1970's were a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Gold was unfixed after decades of being price controlled....inflation soared...oil shocks....political upheavel....currencies under Bretton Woods fell apart. There are so many ways to hedge inflation today that didn't exist 40+ years ago. As an example....back in 1980, both gold and the foreign exchange market traded about $1 billion a day. Today gold trades about $50 billion daily.....and currency trades are at about $6 TRILLION a day. Good actions !

I stopped reading HogHead's posts about collecting....I'll just wait for the movie version to come out.....

Here's what my collection comprises: SAINT-GAUDENS DOUBLE EAGLES: A few commons in mint state and now I'm trying to get some high-60's coins. Eventually want to get an MCMVII High Relief (maybe an AU-58 or 55). I love the coins because their story encompasses many aspects that interlock with American history: their tie-in to the end of The Gold Standard in the U.S....escaping the 1930's Treasury melt by being held overseas....their use in settling trade....the searches in overseas banks in the 1950's and 1960's....the Hoards....etc. etc. Some of the most famous coin collectors have focused on these particular coins. Roger's book on Saint DEs was fantastic. GOLD & SILVER BULLION: I have some gold bullion coins, some raw, some graded (proofs). Anything that moves my fancy here: mostly 1 oz. coins but all the way down to 1/20th oz. Eagles, Maple Leafs, Buffalos, Krugerrands, and Pandas. On silver....basic ASEs (usually graded/proof) and I have some of the 5 oz. biggies. MORGAN SILVER DOLLARS: A few coins in high-grade, some PL's and DMPLs, I don't really collect here too much stuff but if I see a really nice blast-white coin that looks like it WASN'T dipped, I'll give it a look. Would like to get an MS-68 coin if I could get one for about $1,000. GSA Hoard coins are an area I would add to. COMMEMORATIVES: Poor-man's substitute for more expensive classic coins like Morgans, Saints, and Liberty's. Many times it's a silver recreation of a famous gold coin or gold pattern. The National Parks Foundation series of Saint-Gauden coinage really piqued my interest. Wanted some of the gold recreations but a wee bit pricey. How I got started....I used to get proof and mint sets as gifts in the 1970's...but I never really got into collecting. Collected a bullion coin here and there when I got out of college...had clients who were buying Saints/Liberty's from the telemarketers in the 1990's but never followed up (could have got lots of Saints for $500 or less !! ). The 2009 UHR spurred me to learn about the Real HR/UHR and a few years later I started nibbling on the Saint-Gaudens series. Have only worked PT of late so it's been few and far between on purchases.

No, rolling periods eliminates TIME BIAS because otherwise the starting and ending periods for a measurement can be biased. That's the problem with all these clowns who use 1973 as a starting point for gold. For those who don't know what I am talking about....for a 20 year time-horizon.....1973-1993 returns.....1974-1994 returns.....1975-1995 returns.....etc. This is a fair and impartial way of comparing returns over time.

The #1 guy in crypto just lost 94% of his net worth in 1 day. If HE has no idea what is happening, those of you "invested" in this stuff should ask how you do:https://www.coindesk.com/business/2...-a-billionaire-after-146b-overnight-wipe-out/

No....you have to use rolling time periods and when you do stocks are the best-performing asset class with medium volatility and drawdowns. Bonds are 2nd and gold/commodities bring up the rear along with cash/money markets. Bonds are having their worst year in a century this year.

Precious metals/commodities tend to have big cyclical moves....stocks move UP over time, in the aggregate....bonds are capped by Laws Of Mathematics (duration, credit losses). So it's more than just "what goes up must come down." Depends on how much of each !!

My understanding from clients/friends/family -- I wasn't into gold/coins at the time -- was that decades ago firms like Blanchard used to sell you the bullion coins and then try and get you to move into the numismatics. My uncle for one bought a few dozen Saints (after buying bullion coins), though I've never seen them (I think I told him to catalog them for me a few months ago ). In retrospect, it turned out OK for him as most of the time he bought gold was probably $400-500. While more gains were to be made by buying bullion, even paying a rich premium for numismatics turned out OK (to what extent I don't know).

The Zimbabwe Dollar is more stable.

What are you buying ? It's like buying cheap stocks, but not being sure if the exchange or transfer agent or brokerage firm will be able to credit you the shares. This would be comical if not for the $$$ losses for small investors.