JTO

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  1. JTO

    What is this?

    Did the mint really sellout to the big marketers with no public release? I found this on MCM for an obscene amount. It appears to be a US mint issue and NGC has certified it giving it credibility. On the US Mint website there is no mention of this coin on the product schedule. can anyone tell me is the really what is? It seems to be a direct to marketers sellout by the US Mint completely cutting out the public. On the competitive set under the national park service this is listed with no points assigned. It is not a "non-competitive issue" (ie Norse medals) with 0 points, what the..... John To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.
  2. Thank you RWB I knew someone here would have the answer. And to Raving Nut..Maybe it is from someone NAMED General Services Administration and then it would all be okay... but it isn't. We don't have to call it a lie we can call it a unscrupulous marketing ploy, which is what I thought. But lie is easier. P.S. RWB I just bought your book "From Mine to Mint", Autographed. I look forward to reading it. I know I am getting old when I have more books than coins. Also after reading your Peace Dollar book when it first came out, I saw with rapt interest the counterstamped "1978 Carter Camp David Peace summit Dollar" and wondered where I could get one. It was in the last Long Beach HA sale and soon I will have it. That buy the book before the coin thing is sage advice.
  3. I've never heard of a GSA gold hoard release is this just a marketing ploy? I was browsing the auction archives at Heritage and came across a group of coins that I had never heard of. They were 2-1/2 dollar Indians slabbed in an NGC holder with the GSA attribution. This makes no sense to me in view of the fact that when gold or bullion was recalled by the federal government in 1933 it was melted into ingots for storage at Fort Knox. I know that in the past dealer's with enough coins and cash can have essentially any attribution placed in the slab. Some hoards are real and some are not. Has anyone heard of or familiar with this particular NGC insert? See more journals by JTO
  4. I've never heard of a GSA gold hoard release is this just a marketing ploy? I was browsing the auction archives at Heritage and came across a group of coins that I had never heard of. They were 2-1/2 dollar Indians slabbed in an NGC holder with the GSA attribution. This makes no sense to me in view of the fact that when gold or bullion was recalled by the federal government in 1933 it was melted into ingots for storage at Fort Knox. I know that in the past dealer's with enough coins to grade and cash to spend can have essentially any attribution placed in the slab. Some hoards are real and some are not. He is anyone from earlier with this particular NGC insert? To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.
  5. Good Job! The first gold acquisition is always the best and you have selected a beautiful example. There is something about gold that has memorized kings and peasants alike. As a peasant I look at a gold coin and think of all of the mass gold melts that have occurred over the years in the US and if, just what if a portion of the coins gold was once something extraordinary (a Stella, a Brasher doubloon) Enjoy, that is the most important thing to not lose sight of. Numismatics is something to enjoy at whatever level you participate.
  6. Indeed it is what is called a "Love Token". Usually only one side is engraved, and sometimes quite beautifully, and the other is left with the original devices (surface). They seem to be most common around the times of war but can be anytime. Also it is common for the host coin to have a hole to allow the coin/token to be worn. John
  7. Or... Submit them in a pseudo third party slab with higher 62, 63 grades (one of the slabs eBay does not recognize but still lets people sell, that is make your own). Gen some coin world pseudo slabs and label maker and whip up a set. They will down grade them for sure. I think I am kidding but I am not sure. John AKA JTO
  8. In my opinion, Coinman1794 has it right. In theory a 58 should be a beautiful coin with slight breaking of the mint luster (wear). A MS-60 is an ugly (usually) coin with a lot of bag marks, lots of small contact marks but, in theory or principle, no discernible wear. This is frequently defined as no breaks in the mint luster even on the high points. So, if you put the coins in the washer and then dryer you should go from MS-69 to MS-61 or 62. To get 58's would be a lot of work but could be done. Using the coins as pocket pieces would work but slowly. Men used to carry a silver dollar or similar coin in their pocket as a pocket piece. Then when an urge to fidget came at the wrong time they would put their hands in their pockets and flip, fondle, rub, rotate etc. the coin until the urge to fidget passed. Or more likely for some people simply the feeling of holding hard currency in their pocket (when it was made of silver and gold, that is, it had intrinsic worth) was reassuring. In many state vagrancy laws state that if you are found wandering about with less than $1 then you are a vagrant. When the coinage was debased I think that the habit holding a pocket piece lost its...Luster. (Sorry) John
  9. Congratulations Rick, What was the grade for the coin shown? It looks to be a MS-63 or maybe a 64, it has beautiful luster. But that may just be due the magnification. It also look like a silver not nickel coin, odd John
  10. Thank You all for your thoughtful comments. My original goal in starting this thread was achieved; to stimulate an interesting discussion of the topic. I guess I will call it a fin from now on. As for old habits die hard, does anyone care to take on the fact that based on the current research it is impossible for the Gobrecht dollar, name below base (Judd 58), to have proceeded the circulation strike with name on base (Judd 60)? Every year I wait for the red book change this and so far no luck. According to Ken Bressett this section (Gobrecht dollar) of the Red Book has been rewritten more than any other single section and yet... Again thank you all for your thoughts and comments. John
  11. Obviously, those of you with 3000-13,000 posts on this Board spend a lot of time and energy here. I can assure you that my britches are not bunched. brg5658, maybe you misunderstood, or do not know the meaning of the word "pithy". I have not posted thousands of comments. But I have tried to make my posts interesting to the general viewing Collectors Society members. I try to bring up things that I think are controversial or things that may point out a problem in numismatics. Thank you RWB for your "pithy" comment on this thread. [Pithy; 1) brief, using few words in a clever and effective way, 2) having substance and point : tersely cogent](Cogent comes from the Latin cogito "to think". I think that you have verbally illustrated the problem that my post, with a picture, was trying to get at. Specifically, this attribute (I will use that word so as not to be confusing) appears to be a positive attribute on some coins (the 1907 $20 high relief coin) and others it may be used as one aspect to verify authenticity (1911–D $2.5) and ultimately if the dies are offset and the "fin" is high enough then it is an error. That was the conundrum I was trying to raise for discussion. If you look at Jeff Garrett's description for the 1911–D on the NGC Coin Expolrer it says "The issue is usually well struck and is peculiar in that nearly every genuine example is seen with a pronounced wire rim on the obverse." With reference to physics-fan3.14's comment, Jeff Garrett has written "the book" as well. I am a scientist by trade and numismatics is only a avocation and rarely a vocation. But as a scientist I recognize that sometimes the most insightful discoveries come from people who are new to the field or young (I am neither of these things). They don't bring with them the biases and preconceived notions that the "book" is always right. In science you cannot survive by simply reinforcing the status quo. So, Mr Burrette's comment on this thread clarified that there is significant conflict in the meaning and the way that we use the term "wire rim". As a community we would do well to decide what we mean when we write about Wire Rims.
  12. When describing the diagnostic wire rim on a 1911-D $2.5 Indian I was told that it was just a manufacturing defect (See bought a pig in a poke) In a previous thread about my purchase of a set of gold $2.5 gold Indian coins a pithy comment was made that the "wire rim on a coin is a manufacturing defect". With due respect to RWB, a wire rim is not, in my opinion, a manufacturing defect. First, if it were it should be listed as a Mint Error, it is not. The most well-known example of a coin catalogued not only with this trait in the red book but it is listed separately based on the presence or absence of a wire rim. The coin is, of course, the 1907 $20 High Relief gold piece by Augustus Saint-Gaudens. The wire rim occurs when a new die is used with a full planchet. The amount of gold, silver or whatever metal used in the planchet fills all of the devices and body of the coin with enough additional metal to have a small amount flow (under pressure the metal becomes fluid) out around the collar. A wire rim is created. It is found it usually occurs in very early die states or some proof coins. Sure, you could call it a manufacturing defect, but it is most often seen as a desirable trait. The wire rim may disappear over time with wear (the coin had it but it wore off or as the dies wear and as the metal flows there is no longer more metal than the dies can hold. To the original point: the vast majority of the 1911-D gold $2.5, strong D coins have a wire rim. I have never seen a 1911-D gold $2.5, strong D without it. This is also a difficult attribute to counterfeit accurately. And so my comment that it is a diagnostic to look for. Yes, if it is not there it does not automatically mean that the coin is bad, but if it is there it is a good sign. That's all... See more journals by JTO
  13. When describing the diagnostic wire rim on a 1911-D $2.5 Indian I was told that it was just a manufacturing defect (See bought a pig in a poke) In a previous thread about my purchase of a set of gold $2.5 gold Indian coins a pithy comment was made that the "wire rim on a coin is a manufacturing defect". With due respect to RWB, a wire rim is not, in my opinion, a manufacturing defect. First, if it were it should be listed as a Mint Error, it is not. The most well-known example of a coin catalogued not only with this trait in the red book but it is listed separately based on the presence or absence of a wire rim. The coin is, of course, the 1907 $20 High Relief gold piece by Augustus Saint-Gaudens. The wire rim occurs when a new die is used with a full planchet. The amount of gold, silver or whatever metal used in the planchet fills all of the devices and body of the coin with enough additional metal to have a small amount flow (under pressure the metal becomes fluid) out around the collar. A wire rim is created. It is found it usually occurs in very early die states or some proof coins. Sure, you could call it a manufacturing defect, but it is most often seen as a desirable trait. The wire rim may disappear over time with wear (the coin had it but it wore off or as the dies wear and as the metal flows there is no longer more metal than the dies can hold. To the original point: the vast majority of the 1911-D gold $2.5, strong D coins have a wire rim. I have never seen a 1911-D gold $2.5, strong D without it. This is also a difficult attribute to counterfeit accurately. And so my comment that it is a diagnostic to look for. Yes, if it is not there it does not automatically mean that the coin is bad, but if it is there it is a good sign. That's all... To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.
  14. The photo shows the wire rim on the obverse from 11 o'clock to 5 o'clock to look for. John
  15. The context is that the deal took place 10 years ago. So, if the 1911-D had come back Unc-"Improperly Cleaned" the deal would have been a bust. That is scary, for me. And on that note NGC seems to me to be getting "tougher" on coins calling more and more problem coins. Maybe it is just me. I had 10 years and I should have looked closer. But, I thought, "these are original coins pulled from circulation they wouldn't be problem coin's..." Wrong. Fortunately not the key date for the series. Also I just noticed I crept in to the top 20 overall, I would have never thought that possible. John
  16. I bought a set of $2.5 Indians in a capital plastics holder where they have been in my bank until now... I agreed to buy a set for 10K form a "friend" who had bought them from an estate. When it came time to do the deal, I looked at the coins and what the $%#&*! I said I remembered them in a black holder and in better shape. Now I find out that there were 2 sets and the first set, the one that got me worked up, he said had already sold. I was not happy. The second set was not at all like the first. Each coin in the first set had had rich luster, so I remember... The second looked about AU at first glance. I offered 7K and he came back with 7.5K. It was housed in a BLUE capital plastics holder and I had to try to grade the coins on the fly. All I really focused on was the 11D. It had the wire rim obverse that is diagnostic of the real deal, so I was okay there. The 11D looked to be an AU-58 or MS-61 or 62. Now almost 10 years later I finally decided to find out how I had done with my pig in a poke. I took all the coins to the Dallas ANA for NGC to grade but only PCGS was doing "on-site" grading, so I submitted the 11-D and 14 to PCGS and sent the rest to NGC. I guess it was not a bad deal after all. The set ranks all the way up at 150 in the NGC Registry, and I am just fine with that. To see the entire set go to http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=188559 I had a total of 5 out of 15 come back "improperly cleaned" and after careful review I actually agree with 4 of those 5. the 5th coin will go to PCGS or I will just sell it raw. Here is the run downof the original 15 coins is submitted: 1908 AU "improperly cleaned" 1909 AU "improperly cleaned" 1910 MS--62 1911 MS--61 1911--D MS--61 (PCGS) 1912 AU "improperly cleaned" 1913 AU--58 1914 AU--58 (PCGS) 1914--D AU "improperly cleaned" 1915 MS--62 1925--D MS--62 1926 Unc "improperly cleaned" 1927 MS--63 1928 MS--64+ (of course the most common date) 1929 MS--62 What does the term "buying a pig in a poke" refer to? The word poke means bag and if I am not mistaken, the phrase is English and refers to the open markets were one could by a piglet in an unopened bag. The term came to connote buying something without knowing what you're getting because crooked farmers would substitute a cat or dog which had little or no value as consumable meat for the pig. See more journals by JTO John
  17. I bought a set of $2.5 Indians in a capital plastics holder where they have been in my bank until now... I agreed to buy a set for 10K form a "friend" who had bought them from an estate. When it came time to do the deal, I looked at the coins and what the $%#&*! I said I remembered them in a black holder and in better shape. Now I find out that there were 2 sets and the first set, the one that got me worked up, he said had already sold. I was not happy. The second set was not at all like the first. Each coin in the first set had had rich luster, so I remember... The second looked about AU at first glance. I offered 7K and he came back with 7.5K. It was housed in a BLUE capital plastics holder and I had to try to grade the coins on the fly. All I really focused on was the 11D. It had the wire rim that is diagnostic of the real deal so I was okay there and look to be a AU-58 or MS-61 or 62. Now almost 10 years later I finally decided to find out how I had done with my pig in a poke. I took all the coins to the Dallas ANA for NGC to grade but only PCGS was doing "on-site" grading, so I submitted the 11-D and 14 to PCGS and sent the rest to NGC. I guess it was not a bad deal after all. To see the entire set go to http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=188559 I had a total of 5 out of 15 come back "improperly cleaned" and after careful review I actually agree with 4 of those 5. the 5th coin will go to PCGS or I will just sell it raw. Here is the run downof the original 15 coins is submitted: 1908 AU "improperly cleaned" 1909 AU "improperly cleaned" 1910 MS--62 1911 MS--61 1911--D MS--61 (PCGS) 1912 AU "improperly cleaned" 1913 AU--58 1914 AU--58 (PCGS) 1914--D AU "improperly cleaned" 1915 MS--62 1925--D MS--62 1926 Unc "improperly cleaned" 1927 MS--63 1928 MS--64+ (of course the most common date) 1929 MS--62 What does the term "buying a pig in a poke" refer to? The word poke means bag and if I am not mistaken, the phrase is English and refers to the open markets were one could by a piglet in an unopened bag. The term came to connote buying something without knowing what you're getting because crooked farmers would substitute a cat or dog which had little or no value as consumable meat for the pig. To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.
  18. I'm sorry to hear the you have that experience. Just to clear the air about what I am about to say: I do not now nor have I ever had any financial interest in or been a beneficiary of Heritage Auctions. I started doing business with Heritage in the late 90s prior to their rise to be coming the giant of the auction industry. It used to be that the limit for credit cards was $10,000. At the same time they're buyer's premium was 15%. Now the credit card limit is, I thought, $1000 and the buyer's premium is 17.5%. I have to agree they are currently posting $9 billion in sales, that even if they only got 15%, means they have made over $1.3 billion. At some point it does just seemed to become greed. With that said, my experiences with them have been almost uniformly positive. There quick to ship my items, by federal express, and responsive to all of my inquiries. I've recently consigned some items but I am having second thoughts about that 17.5% that they take off the top. When I do the math I may be able to do better selling them myself. There are world auction houses that have moved to 20%. If they get to that point I think they will lose their major client base. For the dealer there just will not be anymore money to be made, for the collector the prices start to become prohibitive or the consignor realize that they can sell their coins to a dealer for less than a 20% overhead. The comment "too big to fail" becomes what Fidelity became in the 90s which is too big to serve its client base. Very Nice coin, congratulations! read the fine print... John
  19. Alan, I am old enough to remember brilliant is best. BU was the grade of choice and dealers (some, or most) had various ways of making a coin "BLAST WHITE"...LIKE NEW... and so on. As, it often does the pendulum has swung in the other direction. "COLOR" is the new selling point. and I am sure that most of the coins that are slabbed with "amazing colors" are "all natural" but some are not. When a particularly attractive coin, based on toning, comes to auction it may sell at greysheet or several multiples of the red book price. It depends on how many color enthusiasts are bidding. If there are two or more, hold on, as the coin may go for 3, 5 or 10 times market value. Then there are the problem coins..."improperly cleaned". These may sell for less than half of greysheet even when there are no hairlines or signs of abrasive cleaning. Call the doctor. Wouldn't it be great to be able to buy a coin for 50c on the dollar and sell it for 5 times market value. It would and I am afraid it is. Remember, beautiful color or toning is oxidation or tarnish. Those beautiful rainbow colors appear when a coins toning is between blast white and black (in the case of silver coins). So that coin with beautiful color now may be brown or black in 100 years, or 10 years or 1 year or 6 months. It depends on: the coins, the environment (what was left on the coin prior to closing and sealing the holder), how it came to be colored (naturally over decades or centuries or if it became colorized almost overnight, shall we say). NGC and PCGS do a pretty good job of figuring this out but they are no where near 100% on calling artificial toning. My experience is that NGC is more conservative than PCGS. Look at the holder, if the coin has been in the holder for 10 years the process is most likely stable and you should have your colors to enjoy for years. If it is a brand new holder I am more cautious. "Water" spots always make me pause, but there are whole books written about this with insights than I do not have. I think you made the right call. Here is a favorite from my collection. John
  20. Let's move on... What is the difference you ask? Okay I will again play the straight man and set you up for some insane response. The Long Red Arrows show tight clusters of curls on the real coin with wide rivers between Hair locks on the fake The short red arrows show fine detail in the hair on the real coin with fat mushy hair on the fake Gold arrows show sharp lettering on the real coin and fat lettering on the fake. There are so many OBVIOUS sign that this is a fake it is sad. But as a collector who values this forum I 1) want to educate my fellow collectors if I can 2) use this space productively and in the spirit of the hobby and 3) get rid of at least one of the 3 consecutive postings reading "1893 S, Silver Dollar, Morgan. My diagnosis is that the pictured Fake is in fact a silver round, that is a 1 ounce silver token. See more journals by JTO
  21. JTO

    Fake 1893-S

    Let's move on... What is the difference you ask? Okay I will again play the straight man and set you up for some insane response. Long Red Arrows show tight cluster of curls on the real coin with wide rivers between on the fake Short red arrows show fine detail in the hair on the real coin Gold arrows show sharp lettering on the real coin and fat lettering on the fake. There are so many OBVIOUS sign that this is a fake it is sad. But as a collector who values this forum I 1) want to educate my fellow collectors if I can 2) use this space productively and in the spirit of the hobby and 3) get rid of at least one of the 3 consecutive postings reading "1893 S, Silver Dollar, Morgan. My diagnosis is that the pictured Fake is in fact a silver round, that is a 1 ounce silver token. To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.
  22. From his formal top hat to being the foremost seller of the two bit coin, he will be missed. I bought this coin at the Long Beach show in 2010 from Mr Cline. Although not a standout even one of the weakest coins in the set and I paid a premium to it "buy from the master" it was well worth the experience. He was willing to talk with me when, at the time, I had not yet read his book and did not have a good knowledge of Standing Liberty Quarters (SLQ). As you can see he was also willing to autograph the slab (see the reverse photo). He was a kind man who had true passion for what I think is our finest coin. It is sad that he just missed the 2016 tribute to the coins of 1916. The US Mint plans to make gold versions of the Half Dollar (Lib Walking or Walker) the Quarter (Lib Standing or SLQ) and the Dime (Winged Liberty or Mercury). I will miss him and I will never sell the coin (regardless of score.) Set Link http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=138325&Ranking=all See more journals by JTO
  23. JTO

    Remembering Mr. Jay H Cline

    From his formal top hat to being the foremost seller of the two bit coin, he will be missed. I bought this coin at the Long Beach show in 2010 from Mr Cline. Although not a standout even one of the weakest coins in the set and I paid a premium to it "buy from the master" it was well worth the experience. He was willing to talk with me when, at the time, I had not yet read his book and did not have a good knowledge of Standing Liberty Quarters (SLQ). As you can see he was also willing to autograph the slab (see the reverse photo). He was a kind man who had true passion for what I think is our finest coin. I will miss him and I will never sell the coin (regardless of score.) Set Link http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=138325&Ranking=all To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.
  24. 1916 a great transitional year. I finally finished my 1916 mint set. It has two great 20th century Key date coins, the Liberty Standing Quarter and the Winged Liberty (Mercury) Dime. I have pictures for each of the coins. Although there was no ranking benefit to adding pictures, I personally enjoy looking at my fellow collectors' sets more when the included pictures of the coins. As the saying goes "A picture is worth 1000 words". I don't know if this link will work but I'll give it a try. It is a link to my mint set, I welcome comments, criticism and insight. John http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=185101&Ranking=ngc See more journals by JTO
  25. JTO

    1916 Mint Set Finished!

    1916 a great transitional year. I finally finished my 1916 mint set. It has two great 20th century Key date coins, the Liberty Standing Quarter and the Winged Liberty (Mercury) Dime. I have pictures for each of the coins. Although there was no ranking benefit to adding pictures, I personally enjoy looking at my fellow collectors' sets more when the included pictures of the coins. As the saying goes "A picture is worth 1000 words". I don't know if this link will work but I'll give it a try. It is a link to my mint set, I welcome comments, criticism and insight. John http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=185101&Ranking=ngc To see old comments for this Journal entry, click here. New comments can be added below.