Marine Forever

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My opinion is just that an opinion.

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Ray, USMC

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This writing is not intended to anger anyone but rather to spark conversation regarding NGCs decision to allow PCGS graded coins to be added to NGC Registry competitive sets. In my opinion sometimes corporate decisions are made by bowing to the demands made by the loudest voices and not by what is right. I believe that it is far more difficult to obtain a higher grade in any coin with NGC than PCGS. This being said PCGS graded coins will be allowed to compete in NGC registry sets and given the same weight when even an untrained eye can see the difference in like graded coins. I feel this is an unfair advantage with the PCGS coins. PCGS has their own registry for a reason as did NGC. I am not maligning PCGS coins but I will state that in my opinion PCGS grade standards are for less stringent than NGC grade levels. This creates an uneven playing field. I have no problem with sets allowing collectors to showcase their PCGS coins on NGC registries. My issue is with allowing them to compete with NGC only (sets that only contain NGC coins) sets. I own a lot of NGC graded coins and not one graded coin from any other grading company because of their stringent requirement for each grade level. I have never collected coins based on monetary gain but rather first based on history and second on artistic beauty. My collections will never hold any graded coin other than NGC and I don't feel I should have to compete with a less stringently graded coin in a set. Again, I cannot stress this enough, my opinion is that there is a place for PCGS coins to compete but it is not in an NGC registry competitive set. I am betting that I am not the only one that has this opinion and would like to hear other opinions on this as I am always open to everyone's views and opinions. Maybe I will be convinced to change my opinion.

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You are not alone in your opinion. There are many that don't share it though. There are some threads elsewhere in the NGC Registry forum and the US, World and Ancient coin forum. Feel free to find those and chime in on those discussions if you wish.

Welcome / Nice to see you / have you!

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It is, as always, true that many people on both sides will not agree. If we look at it in it's entirety we can ask the question why dedicate your collecting loyalty to one grading company or the other if they don't demonstrate a willingness to support loyal collectors of there brand. The whole registry concept and creation was done with the right intentions, I believe, but brand loyalty for the company you choose should warrant stronger customer support. I think the change to allow PCGS coins to compete was a decision made based on the amount of pressure placed on the decision makers. This site, and the competitions, are driven and based around NGC and it's numerous dedicated NGC collectors.

Thank you for your input.

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19 minutes ago, Ray, USMC said:

If we look at it in it's entirety we can ask the question why dedicate your collecting loyalty to one grading company or the other if they don't demonstrate a willingness to support loyal collectors of there brand. The whole registry concept and creation was done with the right intentions, I believe, but brand loyalty for the company you choose should warrant stronger customer support. I think the change to allow PCGS coins to compete was a decision made based on the amount of pressure placed on the decision makers. This site, and the competitions, are driven and based around NGC and it's numerous dedicated NGC collectors.

I'd say something like 97% of my collection is NGC graded. I have odd PCGS coins where I just happened to find a coin that I liked or needed in PCGS plastic and I loved that I could have all of them displayed in a registry set together. The fact that NGC let me have that made me like them more and made me favor their coins more, whenever possible. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

Some would argue that allowing this IS showing loyalty to their customers because it respects their customers as COIN collectors and not collectors of the holder the coin is in. At the end of the day, the coin is what you're collecting and paying for - we don't buy empty slabs.

One of the benefits of being mostly / fully NGC is the fact that it makes a nicer looking display IMO - which is part of why I do it.

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I certainly agree that in the end it is the coin that counts. The display or the holder is not up for consideration when you need or want a specific coin for you collection. My collection is 100% NGC because I am extremely fond of the standards for grading NGC has. I am not belittling PCGS or collectors that have them but you have to agree the grades they place on coins is not of the same quality as an NGC grade. I completely with the respect NGC has for it's collectors which is another reason I have difficulty accepting the admission of PCGS coins in competition on an NGC Registry platform. Showing is fine with me competing is like comparing apples to lemons. I have been collecting NGC coins since the companies beginning and this is the first year for me to have competitive sets. Prior to this year I was an avid researcher and admiring others collections. Even if I was not in any competition I still would disagree with adding PCGS to the competitive arena. If I was a PCGS competitor I would oppose NGC coin acceptance equally as much and not understand any better than I do NGCs acceptance of PCGS. I guess in the bigger picture it really does not matter except to die hard collector that chooses one or the other.  

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I've seen dogs, as well as PQ beauties, in both types of plastic, 

I think that both companies have tightened up, recently.

The larger market seems to favor PCGS, although I'll never understand the WHY??

I believe that both are of equal quality and deserve to compete together.

NGC is smart enough to recognize this, whereas PCGS is not. 

At the end of the day, it is a business decision....Each service does what's best for their bottom line.    

I'm very grateful that it turned out like it did, as I would NEVER have been able to put my set together the way I have, without BOTH services.  

Just my humble opinion....

Edited by Walkerfan

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Let me start my post by saying that I prefer NGC coins and when I submit coins for grading, they all go to NGC. I like their holders, their grading standard, and their customer service.

I started with NGC's registry in 2008 mainly because I didn't understand or like PCGS's registry format. Secondly, I felt that NGC was more inclusive by allowing both NGC and PCGS United States and world coins in their registry. When NGC refused world coins they were all removed from the competitive registry. The reasoning was that world coins were much more labor intensive to verify for inclusion. I understood this reasoning and though unhappy, went along with it. Subsequently, I seem to remember posts suggesting a future PCGS purge of US coins and NGC said that they had no plans for it at that time.

The most recent PCGS ban included US coins but with a twist and that was the grandfathering of all existing PCGS coins in the NGC registry. With one foot still in the door one can almost make the argument that this return to PCGS inclusion was inevitable.

The following is in part what I believe caused this reversal. First, and perhaps most important is that in the marketplace PCGS coins are much more respected. As such, they typically command higher premiums. I don't like it but the market environment favoring PCGS coins can't be denied. I don't know whether it is clever or more effective marketing or just a rabid PCGS following. Furthermore, it seems as if all the rare and visually appealing US coins go to PCGS for grading. This also means that far more coins are cracked out of NGC holders then are PCGS holders. This has made nice NGC coins much scarcer in the marketplace. Therefore, if I am buying the coin and not the holder, then my coin is most likely slabbed in a PCGS holder. If I pay a premium for PCGS coins and crack them out, and if NGC assigns a more conservative grade, I risk losing my shirt just to make them eligible for NGC's registry. This makes no sense. In fact I did this for a handful of my world coins and the best I got is the same grade. Most of the PCGS world coins I crossed went down a grade. If I can't find NGC holdered coins in the grade and eye appeal I want, I will and have become frustrated. Most of the upgrades for my competitive type-set have been PCGS holdered coins and since I could not enter them into my set I uploaded upgraded pictures onto existing coins. I know that this is a work around but the coins I bought will never have to be upgraded. 

Now to grandfather some coins and not continue allowing PCGS coins in the registry is more unfair than this simple reversal which I like because now all my pictures and more importantly my coins are in-sync again. Yes I understand the rational of this post but for very selfish reasons I like the reversal and I wish NGC had never banned United States PCGS slabbed coins to begin with. Gary  

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I did not start collecting world coins until recently and didn't participate in the registry until recently. I understand that for world coins, they previously allowed PCGS in the registry but that was stopped and NGC has never reversed that decision. I like @coin928 proposal, allow PCGS coins but assign them a lower score whether its a % loss or one grade lower point value. Heck to dissuade those with 100% PCGS coins from winning the registry, if you have 25% of the coins in PCGS, you cannot win an award or get 0 points from that point on for the coins, this is so that those who have mostly NGC coins can be rewarded. 

I now participate in the registry and would love if my pcgs graded world coins could be included so that I can finish my sets, I don't wish to cross them over and I will state that many many of my coins are NGC.

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15 hours ago, gherrmann44 said:

Let me start my post by saying that I prefer NGC coins and when I submit coins for grading, they all go to NGC. I like their holders, their grading standard, and their customer service.

I started with NGC's registry in 2008 mainly because I didn't understand or like PCGS's registry format. Secondly, I felt that NGC was more inclusive by allowing both NGC and PCGS United States and world coins in their registry. When NGC refused world coins they were all removed from the competitive registry. The reasoning was that world coins were much more labor intensive to verify for inclusion. I understood this reasoning and though unhappy, went along with it. Subsequently, I seem to remember posts suggesting a future PCGS purge of US coins and NGC said that they had no plans for it at that time.

The most recent PCGS ban included US coins but with a twist and that was the grandfathering of all existing PCGS coins in the NGC registry. With one foot still in the door one can almost make the argument that this return to PCGS inclusion was inevitable.

The following is in part what I believe caused this reversal. First, and perhaps most important is that in the marketplace PCGS coins are much more respected. As such, they typically command higher premiums. I don't like it but the market environment favoring PCGS coins can't be denied. I don't know whether it is clever or more effective marketing or just a rabid PCGS following. Furthermore, it seems as if all the rare and visually appealing US coins go to PCGS for grading. This also means that far more coins are cracked out of NGC holders then are PCGS holders. This has made nice NGC coins much scarcer in the marketplace. Therefore, if I am buying the coin and not the holder, then my coin is most likely slabbed in a PCGS holder. If I pay a premium for PCGS coins and crack them out, and if NGC assigns a more conservative grade, I risk losing my shirt just to make them eligible for NGC's registry. This makes no sense. In fact I did this for a handful of my world coins and the best I got is the same grade. Most of the PCGS world coins I crossed went down a grade. If I can't find NGC holdered coins in the grade and eye appeal I want, I will and have become frustrated. Most of the upgrades for my competitive type-set have been PCGS holdered coins and since I could not enter them into my set I uploaded upgraded pictures onto existing coins. I know that this is a work around but the coins I bought will never have to be upgraded. 

Now to grandfather some coins and not continue allowing PCGS coins in the registry is more unfair than this simple reversal which I like because now all my pictures and more importantly my coins are in-sync again. Yes I understand the rational of this post but for very selfish reasons I like the reversal and I wish NGC had never banned United States PCGS slabbed coins to begin with. Gary  

I would have to disagree on one point which is in my opinion, PCGS, on the whole, is NOT more respected in the market just less money and easier to obtain higher graded coins. I will admit I like coin928s proposal as that could make the field a little more equal as PCGS coins cannot compare to NGC coins. Not meaning to offend and just stating my opinion based on my 50 plus years of collecting.

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i have to agree with you, what is sad is that you have sets that you are competing against with none or just one NGC coin in the set, why are they not competing in the PCGS Registry instead? Something is fishy, just my two cents.

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I'm glad PCGS coins are back in and I hope that they extend this to World Sets as well.  By allowing PCGS coins, NGC is creating a more comprehensive database of coins.  This data is almost priceless in many ways, and can be used for a variety of business expansions ... like scan data leasing to eBay, creating a sight unseen marketplace, creating a live market virtual trading platform (like a discount brokerage), etc.  Very valuable.

Secondly, a more inclusive registry will benefit all users in the long run.  Eventually, most users will abandon the PCGS platform and migrate over here.  I have a few dozen PCGS coins that are either too high value, or not valuable enough, to cross.  The thing you have to remember about super valuable coins is that they have been cracked a resubmitted a dozen times to achieve the highest grade.  When you are talking about coins worth $10k+, it simply isn't worth the risk to cross them.

Anyway, a bit of stream of consciousness here.  Bottom line is this, over the next decade you will see people abandon the PCGS registry in droves and make their way here unless PCGS starts including NGC coins in their registry.  I do not believe that PCGS has the software infrastructure in place to do so however.

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I believe Augustus 70 has made good points which help me prove my point. As fo the point of a more comprehensive database I would have go on record as simply stating that the database is still out there just not in one place. Searching and obtaining coins a collector wants or needs has never been an easy task. If you want coins that have a meaningful and legitimate grade then you need to have NGC graded coins. This is why they are so well respected in all markets. Taking a chance on crossover coins from PCGS is risky and the only reason it does not maintain or receive the same grade in NGC is that NGC is smart enough to send coins back and states, does not cross, which is a gift and lets you know that your coin is over graded in the PCGS holder. If collectors will abandon PCGS and flock to NGC then why let the competitive playing field be leveled ? The integrity of the NGC Registry should be maintained even if it is not a popular decision to only allow NGC coins to be considered in competitive sets. The coin is the most important part of the equation.

Thank you for your comments. 

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First Sir thank you for your service to our country. As to the Registry set I do have one PCGS token in one of my custom sets. I'm not looking to win any prizes. My main set very rare of 19 tokens is all NGC. I personally do not this completion between collectors. My set is 223 years old and complete. Nineteen of the most beautiful tokens made by Peter Kempson. I learned more history from those19 than any other token. The research. Infantile I couldn't do it but it took five years inevitably there. I agree it your competing for an award your worthwhile befall NGC. That's simple enough. That's for sharing your opinion. Mike

Edited by MIKE BYRNE

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Mike, thank you for the kind words. I , like you, have learned so much about history and the fine art of sculpting dies for minting coins. I too did not join the registry in the hope of winning prizes but rather to share coins with like minded collectors. These comments were meant only to give collectors pride and support for their chosen collections. If we all had an abundance of money then we could afford to have the very best coins which in my opinion would be NGC graded. The competitive collections that are at the top set levels have , what appears to be, some investment sets. I have no problems with that. I also have no problems with showcasing sets that have PCGS & NGC coins together. I just plain like the NGC registry to support NGC collectors in competition a little bit better. I am in no danger of winning any awards either way but I do enjoy sharing sets with other collectors.

Thank you for giving me food for thought. Have a great New Year.

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Ray said, "I am not belittling PCGS or collectors that have them but you have to agree the grades they place on coins is not of the same quality as an NGC grade." 

Actually, I don't have to agree-- and neither do a large percentage of decades-long numismatists. And even though PCGS coins sell at a premium, often, above NGC coins of same grade/series, I would not agree that PCGS grading is superior either.

I don't know what series you collect, but it would be a HUGE sacrifice to collect many of the classic series coins without buying PCGS coins. First, there are some series that appear to be almost 80%+ PCGS holdered, so if you are limited to selecting from the 20% of NGC slabs, then the quality of your collection suffers. Many series and dates may only have a few dozen coins THAT EXIST in the grade range in accordance with one's budget- and PCGS standards WERE actually higher for many years.

The bottom line is, I am an NGC registry collector and send my submissions to NGC because of the service and quick returns ( relatively) however I am not a "rah rah" type who has to be close-minded into joining a red team or blue team and then talking smack about the other. As Walker fan says-- there are beauties and dogs in both holders (NGC had its dog years too and I could post pics of dozens of ugly, harshly-cleaned, over-graded coins in either slab.) It is good for the registry ( especially as a tool for collectors to organize, photo, list, show-off collections) to have the best coins-- now with PCGS holders allowed again, I can hunt for the nicest coin I can find to fill a slot--not just the nicest NGC holdered coin available. 

I must question-- should a true numismatist have such blind corporate/brand loyalty? Does the RahRah Ford guy refuse his uncle's classic vette from the inheritance? Wrong label?.. not even an apt comparison because the RahRah coin guy is being loyal to a plastic holder and not the actual coins.....

 I also noticed a marked drop in registry participation after NGC precluded PCGS graded coins -- large drops in the chat rooms, journals and waning interest in general participation even if coins were still being collected ( myself included).

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24 minutes ago, jackson64 said:

 

 I also noticed a marked drop in registry participation after NGC precluded PCGS graded coins -- large drops in the chat rooms, journals and waning interest in general participation even if coins were still being collected ( myself included).

This place just about died when that happened. It has been worse on the PMG side since they broke up the forums. There is basically nothing going on over there for weeks at a time.

On of the main reasons I bring up my Zimbabwe notes in journal posts over here sometimes is I honestly don't think there's more than 2-5 people over there to see the post.

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Thank you Jackson64 for your comment.

I never meant that anyone was obliged to agree with me. I also do not consider myself a rahrah coin guy. I think I am just an avid collector since long before there were grading companies. I suppose I am loyal to NGC because I like consistency in everything I do. Again this is a personal preference. Because the coin is more important than the holder my entire collection consists of only about 1% graded coins. All of which are NGC and that is because I believe NGC employs the best graders in the industry. I do not expect anyone to agree with what my opinion is which is I said MY opinion. My collecting has always been about history and art. I only collect US coins but because I used to purchase coins at yard sales and flea markets I ended up with many old foreign coins. If we want to allow inclusion then perhaps we should change the registry name to NGC/PCGS registry. As I have said before I am in no danger of winning an award and my participation in the registry was motivated by a desire to share the beauty of coins I have with other collectors. If the end game is solely to win a competition then I guess all grading companies coins should be allowed to compete ? When I posted this journal it was intended to see how other collectors felt and it has done just that. I will say that so far I have not seen enough consistent evidence to change my opinion although I enjoy a spirited debate. Again my comments are motivated by my opinion and not intended to anger anyone. I have the utmost respect for all collectors and welcome all comments to help me understand why NGC bent to pressure to accept PCGS coins.

Thank you to all who have made great comments on this journal. 

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I break coins out of PCGS and ANACS to get them into NGC holders, and I break out old NGC holders to get the coins into the edge-viewable holders.  The main reason I have everything in NGC is because my main collection includes ancient to modern coins, and only NGC does ancients (and ANACS, sure).  Beyond that it's just cosmetic, not about grading. 

But speaking of ANACS - I have had such good luck with NGC grading-up my ANACS hammered gold that I hesitate to share this inside information! 

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What gets my Irish up is that the ANA will have a registry set. There  corporation Mission is education. Now because everyone has one there will be no more learning. I have to get that coin to beat so and so. Collecting is over. Learning is over. It's all about money. This site is complicated to say the least. I do not see the ANA surviving this. Me I still want to learn do research . I want to enjoy collection coins and TOKENS,and medals.

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19 minutes ago, MIKE BYRNE said:

What gets my Irish up is that the ANA will have a registry set. There  corporation Mission is education. Now because everyone has one there will be no more learning. I have to get that coin to beat so and so. Collecting is over. Learning is over. It's all about money. This site is complicated to say the least. I do not see the ANA surviving this. Me I still want to learn do research . I want to enjoy collection coins and TOKENS,and medals.

I would assume that most of what the ANA does now to help people learn and encourage the growth of the hobby will continue but now they're just going to have an NGC backed registry as well. No one is going to force ANA members to join or participate in this new registry. The vast majority of people that buy / own NGC and PCGS graded coins even now don't have registry accounts and don't compete with their sets. Even if people choose to be in the registry they can make sets private and not compete. I think you're making a fuss about nothing here, Mike. Is anyone putting a gun to your head to make you put your coins in competitive sets? Why would you assume it would be this way for anyone else?

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