PCGS coins back in Registry

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Augustus 70

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I believe that I am speaking on behalf of most collectors in here when I say that I welcome the inclusion of PCGS coins back on the NGC registry sets.  I think that NGCs construction of an all inclusive registry/database will continue to set them apart from other grading companies.  I prefer the design and layout of the NGC registry, along with the user friendly interface, will continue to attract the best coins to their site and service regardless of the holder.  Thank you NGC, from all of us.

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I'm pleased by the re-inclusion of PCGS graded coins too, since that's why I choose to participate in the NGC Registry over a decade ago.  It's only for U.S. sets though, so your Canadian silver dollar would remain on the sidelines if it was in a PCGS holder.

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There are some benefits to reverting back to the old system where PCGS coins are allowed back in.  But there are drawbacks and potential pitfalls also, the PCGS registry has been almost taken over by one individual and it would be a shame if that person were to add his (100% PCGS) coins here and also dominate this registry.  Monopolization doesn't lead to good competition.

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2 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

There are some benefits to reverting back to the old system where PCGS coins are allowed back in.  But there are drawbacks and potential pitfalls also, the PCGS registry has been almost taken over by one individual and it would be a shame if that person were to add his (100% PCGS) coins here and also dominate this registry.  Monopolization doesn't lead to good competition.

Well, his sets would be ineligible for the major awards if the 75% ngc rule stays and he wouldn't be able to win both "best in category" awards with PCGS coins and wouldn't be able to compete in any World category as it is now so... He definitely wouldn't monopolize everything. Sad that that's an issue over there but it does show one thing that can happen any time you have a whale in the registry. The same thing could happen here if a wealthy enough person wanted to focus on NGC coins and this registry.

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3 minutes ago, Revenant said:

Well, his sets would be ineligible for the major awards if the 75% ngc rule stays and he wouldn't be able to win both "best in category" awards with PCGS coins and wouldn't be able to compete in any World category as it is now so... He definitely wouldn't monopolize everything. Sad that that's an issue over there but it does show one thing that can happen any time you have a whale in the registry. The same thing could happen here if a wealthy enough person wanted to focus on NGC coins and this registry.

As far as I know his focus is only on US coins at this time so my comments are only directed towards that area, the issue is that that type of monopolization stifles competition.  Yes he wouldn't be able to win the prize/cash awards but his sets would be listed at the top of every set he entered and would win the lions share of best in category awards.  Keep in mind that I think that the best in category award should be for the NGC only material with the combined score awards called something else like best runner up or something along that line to place the importance on the NGC only material awards.  I'm not jealous or envious of his accomplishments but I think the registry ats is losing collectors as they know its impossible to compete with that kind of disposable income.  I could start several sets over there but one look at the leaderboard and you know you cannot compete so whats the point; and I know I'm not alone in thinking that way.  The point of a competitive registry is to compete, something that is largely impossible now ats for a great many collectors and I would hate to see that happen here.  Rather than start a competitive set over there it would be better for me to just do a showcase set instead; as I said monopolization stifles competition.

 

And yes you are certainly correct that another whale could decide to do the same thing with NGC coins, but as long as the market continues to place a higher value on PCGS graded material I think the chances of that happening are slim.

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The point is to have "fun". I'm here because I am having more fun than I could possibly have ATS. The prizes for the sets here are mostly subjective like "Best Presented" which is why people of more modest means like myself can and do win major awards over here. The following is what the judges wrote of one of my winning sets (2009 "Best Presented" 20th Century type set):

Assembling a type set is a wonderful learning experience and can guide one toward a favored area of specialization. The owner of this collection truly appreciates the beauty of our coinage and loves the history behind it. While this set includes some really pleasing coins, each one illustrated, the intent was to investigate the history of coinage rather than to dazzle with high grades. A few pieces yet remain to be added, but what has been achieved already makes for a very satisfying experience.

Especially note the highlight "dazzle with high grades". This makes things here fun because I know I'm always in the game. This year I added a new set and maybe I'll win a prize and maybe I won't. However, this much I know and it's that I had fun doing it. Gary

Edited by gherrmann44

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20 hours ago, Mk123 said:

If they do this for the world sets it will be great!

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for world sets to be included.  When the addition of PCGS coins was suspended for U.S. sets, any PCGS coins in a registry set  were "grandfathered" in and allowed to remain.  The last day PCGS coins were allowed in World registry sets was January 31, 2012, and on February 1, 2012, all PCGS graded coins were expunged from all NGC competitive World sets.  I registered my euphoria over that event in the Journal entry The red ink flowed over the World Coin Registry last night. on February 1, 2012.

The PCGS exclusion from the World Registry was announced on January 18, 2012 via email with a subject line of: Exciting New Updates to NGC Registry.

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Great News for NGC Registry Participants

...

NGC Registry for World Coins Update

Effective January 31, the NGC Registry for World coins will be NGC-exclusive, meaning only NGC-graded coins will be eligible for inclusion.


This change will result in a better experience for collectors with World coin Registry sets. It allows us to create more accurate Registry sets, streamline the process for adding coins to sets and enhance the competition. Most NGC Registry World coin sets are already NGC-exclusive, so this change will affect relatively few users.
 

All coins will continue to appear in your Collection Manager inventory and US Coin Registry sets will not be affected. Should you have any questions, you may contact NGC at 800-642-2646 or registry@NGCcoin.com

I found this policy change more than a bit aggravating, and after many rewrites I replied with the following on January 29, 2012:

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Subject: RE: Exciting New Updates to NGC Registry

Dear NGC Registry,

Your decision to exclude PCGS coins from the Registry for World coins is hardly what I would consider exciting. It certainly generated a lot of excitement for the Collectors Society's members, but from all of the message board posts I've read, I would hardly say that any of them are excited about the new policy.

There may be some for whom this change will result in a better experience, but I am not one of them.  I've been a paying Collectors Society member since November 2007, and I have been adding to my sets in good faith that my PCGS coins would always be welcome.  Most of my coins are in NGC slabs, and any that I have sent for grading have been to NGC.  In very thinly collected sets however, there are often only a few slabbed examples available and those are in PCGS slabs.  I'm not going to cross my PCGS coins over to NGC just so that I can included them in a competitive sets. There is no financial incentive since it would cost a lot of money and provide no offsetting increase in value.

If it is truly the hassle factor for you employees, then charge a few dollars per PCGS coin to have it added to a registry set.  I'd be happy to pay a small fee to have a PCGS coin added.

If it is a case of mismatched designations, then just exclude those that do not exactly match their NGC counterparts. 

It seems to me that thee are plenty of alternatives to the proposed policy of absolute exclusion.  Certainly, expunging all PCGS coins from current sets seems very heavy handed and completely unnecessary.

I sincerely hope you reconsider this policy change before January 31st.

To which I received the following reply on January 30, 2012:

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Thanks for the email. There has been a significant expense on our end in extending the World Coin Registry to support both NGC and PCGS, and the result has been that we cannot release new features that support collectors of World coins (such as integration with the World Coin Price Guide, Krause, and the Census). The different attributions and designations used by NGC and PCGS for World coins have compounded that difficulty.

 

The goal is not to force crossovers, but NGC does maintain a significant market share advantage over PCGS. The change made a lot of sense for long term growth of the World Coin Registry. Very few Registry users have a significant number of PCGS-graded World coins so the change only affects a small number of people.

 

Your PCGS-graded World coins will continue to be in your Collection Manager and will still be allowed in Custom Sets. You do not have to spend money to cross over the coins if you don't want to.

I hope I'm wrong, but I it seems very unlikely that the NGC-exclusive policy for the World registry sets will be reversed after nearly eight years.

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I'll give NGC credit for changing their mind on one thing though in that they decided to leave PCGS eligible for custom sets. If I remember correctly world coins were also to be excluded from custom sets or was that when they excluded PCGS coins from all sets. No matter, they did listen to their customers and changed their mind!

Edited by gherrmann44

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1 hour ago, Augustus 70 said:

But also, if he or she has spent one hundred million dollars on rare coins, then they do deserve to win all the registry sets.

Maybe yes maybe not, a fat wallet has always been an advantage in numismatics but that's not the point.  The issue is not does someone deserve to win because he can outspend everyone, but is it healthy for the registry to have the kind of dominance we are now seeing in the registry ats.  When the small fish have no chance at winning; even if that chance is more illusion than reality; some of those small fish will drop out thus reducing competition which is not a good thing.    I see the same thing in the racing that I do, the fast guys are always fast and when a new racer tries the class and gets his butt whooped he leaves and doesn't return; why - because there is no fun in constantly losing.  Sure you can have fun in this hobby and never win a prize or award, but the point of a competitive registry is to win, and if one person wins most or all the awards its not a competition anymore.  As Gary mentioned that is an advantage of the registry here as awards are given out for attributes other than just top dollar spent; I just hope we don't see what is happening ats happen here.

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2 hours ago, Augustus 70 said:

But also, if he or she has spent one hundred million dollars on rare coins, then they do deserve to win all the registry sets.

If this is the person that spent $100-200 million on coins I hope he did it for more than just being king of the registry. 😆 

2 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Rather than start a competitive set over there it would be better for me to just do a showcase set instead; as I said monopolization stifles competition.

I agree with you that someone having and overwhelming set can stifle / discourage competition and this can in turn stifle participation. But, as it is, if you look at almost any US competitive category there's a set at the top that is staggeringly good that someone spent maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on that your average collector or newbie would find almost impossible to touch. The only difference with what you talk about is it would be the same person in each category.

As it is people still complain regularly that it's impossible to compete here without a 5 or 6 figure war chest. I just think the boogie man you fear is almost de facto already here. The only hope for some - maybe many / most - is to go for MS/PF 70 moderns and "win" a modern set - along with 50-100 others ranked / tied for #1 - and then you still have to deal with people dissing your coins as "widgets," or "not real coins."

The vast majority of the 13,000+ users with coins in sets will never win much - if anything.

Most of us seem to have just 1 or 2 pet  projects or categories we fight in for a top spot.

I probably wouldn't have stayed / come back if this place was just a battleground - it's also about community.

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13 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Maybe yes maybe not, a fat wallet has always been an advantage in numismatics but that's not the point.  The issue is not does someone deserve to win because he can outspend everyone, but is it healthy for the registry to have the kind of dominance we are now seeing in the registry ats.  When the small fish have no chance at winning; even if that chance is more illusion than reality; some of those small fish will drop out thus reducing competition which is not a good thing.    I see the same thing in the racing that I do, the fast guys are always fast and when a new racer tries the class and gets his butt whooped he leaves and doesn't return; why - because there is no fun in constantly losing.  Sure you can have fun in this hobby and never win a prize or award, but the point of a competitive registry is to win, and if one person wins most or all the awards its not a competition anymore.  As Gary mentioned that is an advantage of the registry here as awards are given out for attributes other than just top dollar spent; I just hope we don't see what is happening ats happen here.

Yes, but for this reason NGC has opened ‘best presented set’, ‘best custom set’, etc.  A $250k coin should be ranked higher, no matter the holder it is in.  Average collectors will never be able to compete with that, I agree, but nor should they be able to!  Highly pedigreed, top grade rarities will always win the day no matter what.  I enjoy seeing these top coins displayed on here and I also find it inspiring.

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18 minutes ago, Augustus 70 said:

Yes, but for this reason NGC has opened ‘best presented set’, ‘best custom set’, etc.  A $250k coin should be ranked higher, no matter the holder it is in.  Average collectors will never be able to compete with that, I agree, but nor should they be able to!  Highly pedigreed, top grade rarities will always win the day no matter what.  I enjoy seeing these top coins displayed on here and I also find it inspiring.

A lot of what I enjoy and call fun is not just being eligible for a major prize but perusing the sets you speak of here and ATS. I simply love and admire numismatic art especially when it is rare and well preserved. Just to be in awe and dream is a lot of fun to me. Without it I would never be where I am today. That said when those top sets have either no pictures or are obscured then I am particularly annoyed. :(   Anymore, I buy coins mostly for their beauty, either artistically or for their state of preservation. This is the reason I am upgrading my type set with coins that I feel are pleasing to my eyes. I feel that with the coins I collect, I can accomplish this without spending a lot of money.

Edited by gherrmann44

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@coin928  That was a very nice letter you sent to NGC, oh well, good thing a large number of my world registry coins are already in NGC slabs. The ones that aren't, I may one day cross them over and/or just look for a replacement that is already in NGC slab.

@gherrmann44 I love many of the custom sets, well written with lots of history regarding each coin, and many I've seen aren't even that rare, it was the way the collector presented the set which made it so enjoyable. A $1 million coin means nothing to me without a interesting picture and a meaningful description.

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