My RedBook does not call these American tokens. It says they are "English tradesman's tokens of the kind collected by English numismatists..." Quote: " The Franklin Press tokens did not circulate as money in America, but, being associated with a London shop where Benjamin Franklin once worked, they have long been included in American coin collections." Bowers also states that they were struck in England, and Breen attributed them to Lutwych's mint in Birmingham, England. (Breen did not always get things right, rhough.)

I am looking forward to seeing pictures of your token.

High Just Bob. I respect what Mr. Bowers said and thank you for the reserch. But Benjamin Franklin not only worked there he lived there. The Token was made in Britain the book I quoted from is just that tokens and coinage of the 18th century Britain. Now they have all the information so there is no doubt. Now they did make tokens of some famous Americans. But they have the town Middlesex. It's not the only reference book. This is what's given me the problem of putting it up. They list three options but it starts with the U.S. And will not allow me to put through the location of the D&H number which it has. I listed the page number and it's assigned number. So to me as a Conder collector this token came from one place it was ordered by Follower. So to any Conder collector it is and always be a British token. Like i said last time it took me three months to get a token of Queen Victoria done  Look how long that! took This should take twenty minutes. When I first saw it for sale by a major company it was listed as British Token. So they got it right. It's because it's in the Red book I'm having this problem. I bet if I went the Woods Hibernia in the same problem. Made in England for Ireland they refused them and went them to the U.S. It's in the Red Book but has nothing to do with us. What you said and what's in the book is right. Try and get it posted as a British token. It just will not work. I thank you for your response but like I said they have done it before. I don't know why.But it's in there hands now. It will be curious as to what they say. That's why I have the the name of the book and page. Thanks for your response I appreciate it very muxh. The label has no reference to Britain figure that out. Thanks Mike. I have an update I did get the picture up and now.you will see there error. I did get Middlesex in there and the D&H number 307a  so I have made some headway. It's in all the the Conder books. I can't figure how they made that mistake. Patients were half way there. Mike

How come you won't talk to Me Q David Bowers and the other authors of the book. With cooperation we get things done. Believe they can explain why in five minutes that's all I'm asking. I m going in for surgery today. Look there has been a mistake. These men know these tokens and are willing to help send me an email next week I will give you his. Thanks for your help Mike

Just great stuff here....thanks to all above.....peace

Thank you sir for your comment. It's the hobby that makes great stuuff. Mike

Great job Mike. NGC has a bit to learn about these Conder Tokens. Thanks for the hint about the edge writing. Good luck on your quest.

Well these are two reasons Conder Token collectors don't trust third party grading. I have had famous Handel reverses out with the reverse as the obverse. Then you have the Franklin Press that label makes no sense and P.C.G.S.no edge writing it can mean a couple of hundred or thousand dollars why bothere. Now I hope you understand I just took these two out because there famous not even meaning to bring up a discussion like this. But there they are for everyone to see. Mike 

Thanks for putting up the pictures.The Franklin Press is a nice one, in really great shape,  and the Kempson piece is a real beauty.

Thank you very much. There is so much history about this token it's unbelivable. Benjamin Franklin came to G .Britain to purchase products for a press. The owner said I can make money using his name . So the token was born. It looks identical to the one in the Smithsonian institution. If you read about how he got there and became stranded there for a year and a half it worth reading about. Thanks for the compliment on P.Kempson. I was told by the auction house that the particular token went up £ 600 pounds in one night because it was in his collection. But unless I can see it with my eyes I can't really say yes it was. Have a great day and thanks. Mike

Hey Mike, fancy meeting you here.  Love to hear about your tokens, you are truly a font of knowledge.  Later Mokie

Learned it the old  fashion way books. And reserch. Once I got into them I enjoyed them. I was just looking at one I might put up. Started in 1050 A.D. Now.it's still standing better and sronger. How can you not catch your interest. It gets mine. Take care Mike. And Thanks.

As I write this my token should be back this week. I'm very excited to see it. I supplied the correct information and book and page it was on. This will be a rare one with the right information. Not even P.S.C.G.has the correct version.  So I should have it by the 13th of May I will post it with The other one. Thanks NGC for understanding. And your great cooperation. P.C.G.S.  sometimes circles the edge lettering. That could me hundreds if not thousands. That's why I stopped sending my tokens there and coins. Thanks everyone. Mike.

On 2/24/2019 at 7:53 PM, Just Bob said:

My RedBook does not call these American tokens. It says they are "English tradesman's tokens of the kind collected by English numismatists..." Quote: " The Franklin Press tokens did not circulate as money in America, but, being associated with a London shop where Benjamin Franklin once worked, they have long been included in American coin collections." Bowers also states that they were struck in England, and Breen attributed them to Lutwych's mint in Birmingham, England. (Breen did not always get things right, rhough.)

I am looking forward to seeing pictures of your token.

That's were the mistake started. They used The red book not The book Conder collectors use and NGC. It doesn't belong in the red book. It was collected here never used for money never circulated that's from Q.David Bowers. So why is it there. I have no idea I think they needed to fill space. It has none of the information we need to reference it. Read my updates maybe you will get a better idea how important Chris information is. The red book doesn't even say we're in England jigsaw made of who commissioned it. Why it was made. Th e difference in rarity. The one with edge writing is worth thousands.. But The red book does not tell you that. So I went to the net. One dealer has it made in Philadelphia. This is why it has to be removed. By the way Matthew Boulton ran the Birmingham mint not Lutywchs he worked there as a die sinker. Thanks Mike

On 2/27/2019 at 11:58 AM, Just Bob said:

Thanks for putting up the pictures.The Franklin Press is a nice one, in really great shape,  and the Kempson piece is a real beauty.

If you go to Washington the original press he used is in the Smithsonian Institute. Thanks. Mike

Thanks for all the updates Mike. I looked it up in my copy of the English book. It's right where you said and the D&H number you stated. Get it right NGC. Facts are facts. just because it's been mis-labeled for years, doesn't mean it can't be corrected now. Good luck on your quest..

I don't want to change grading standards.face it every company in the United States makes a mistake. All I want is were it was made and the reference number. Because it's in the red book doesn't make this label right. It doesn't belong in the red book. This is a collectors item. Not coinage never used as such. So through out all the right books and include every token that made it to the U.S. Put one in our all of them all in. It's a collectors item nothing else like every other Conder token. We will end this so everyone comes out with resoect.  Thanks Mike

The reason allot of people do not collect these are very easy. First they have no idea of the value. Forty dollars for circulated ones hundreds and into the tens of thousands for some some two thousand and one thousand . Second Americans want value they don't see it they don't buy it. Three the workmanship is superb for there and some.look like the came off the die. Third we don't believe in slabing. The ones I have slabed are for one reason so they will keep there color and I want these slabed for protection. If NGC didn't put a grade on it they would make a fortune. The ones I collect came from professional collectors. Yes they had them back there. Some.have not seen the light of day in a hundred years when they pass the families sold them to auction houses into the vault they went. That's why I like them. Mike

I say drop it . Friendship is more important than a label. I contacted Mr. Bowers and told him to drop the issue.. It's a shame when a label can interfere with friends. That should not happen it should never happen it's business not personal.  I noticed a mistake and brought it to there attention.. They don't want to carry on any discussion that's fine with me. I thought I was doing the right thing. Just trying to right a wrong. That's all. So I can hold my head up for trying. Sometimes you just can't discuss with city hall. Thanks everyone for there support. But this issue is closed. I hope the other door opens again. Mike.